Old Complete Monster cleanup thread
Welcome to the Complete Monster proposal thread! This is the thread where new Complete Monster examples are vetted, approved, and written up. If you're looking for the general cleanup thread (for cuts, rewrites, expansions, and the like), please go here
Important: Before suggesting any new examples, please read the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List; if you have any questions, the odds are high they are answered there. Additionally, please check here for the earliest date a work can be discussed (usually two weeks from the U.S. release date) and whether the work has already been reserved by another user.
Here is how the process works:
- If you have a candidate to propose, you can simply come right in and propose them! If the character's run is brief, such as a single issue of a comic book, then a simple summary of their actions and any potential redeeming qualities will be enough; for longer-running candidates, an effortpost (EP) might be helpful for organizing the proposal. An EP is not outright required, but please be mindful that if a post becomes too clunky and unorganized, it can be very hard for other people to follow.
- After the proposal, there will be a 72-hour discussion and voting period, where people may ask questions and vote on the candidate. The number of upvotes must outnumber the downvotes by at least five for the character to be considered "approved".
- Three days after the proposal has been made, if the character has been approved, you may post the writeup (the text to be posted on the trope page itself) on the thread and send it to the drafts page. Your candidate will soon be added to the CM subpage. If the work has a page, you should add your candidate to the relevant YMMV page. Voila! It's that simple!
Outside of this process, we do have a few ground rules:
- To keep the thread moving at a reasonable pace, there are some restrictions on when a proposal can be made. There should only be a maximum of four EPs posted both per page and per hour to ensure that nothing gets lost in the shuffle; additionally, each individual troper should only be proposing or writing up characters from a maximum of three works at a time (from initial proposals to end of their voting period). If your proposal would fall outside of either of these guidelines, we'd like to ask you to please wait until they would fit within; feel free to type them up on an outside document, and then when the time comes, you can just copy, paste, and post!
- No plagiarism of any kind. This is a very serious matter site-wide, as the website could get in actual legal trouble over this; as a result, this can very quickly lead to mod intervention. This can take many different forms:
- Direct plagiarism, i.e. wholesale copying. This is not only the easiest to find, but is also the most likely to warrant quick moderator intervention. To be clear, quoting in some places is perfectly acceptable, but it has to be very clear you're quoting from something else and it cannot be anything longer than a sentence or two - if you're quoting an entire work summary from Wikipedia, no one is going to believe you've actually consumed the work, so even if you cite your source, your candidate will be downvoted anyway.
- Self-plagiarism. Even if you can prove that you wrote the same text in both places, the site itself can't contain any of the duplicated text. If you already wrote something once before, it's not too hard to write it a second time.
- Using another site's work as a template for a proposal. Just because you don't copy and paste something directly doesn't mean it's any harder to detect if you're basing parts or all of your proposal on text someone else wrote. To be clear, this doesn't violate site rules and won't lead to mod intervention, but just like if you directly plagiarize, no one will believe you've consumed the work if you're clearly basing your proposal on something else. This thread largely operates on the honor system, and tweaking someone else's work to pass it off as your own is one of the fastest ways to lose trust.
- Votes must be for specific candidates, meaning no blanket voting (i.e. "yes to everyone I missed").
- If you are the first person to downvote a candidate, please provide an explanation of why when you do so. We're here for discussions above all, and a hit-and-run downvote doesn't facilitate anything.
- If a work is already reserved by another user, please don't comment on the work or any potential characters worth discussion before the discussion date. We know how exciting it is when a work has a keeper that you're waiting to talk about, but it's not fair to the person who reserved the work who is just as excited to lead the discussion to see the discussion getting spoiled before they get to do it. On the other hand, if the reservation only has one name attached, shoot them a PM - they may be down for a collaboration, which will get you in on the fun as well!
- Please keep the thread on-topic. While discussing the trope is fun and we encourage people to enjoy it, questions like "who's your favorite CM" are off-topic and can lead to thumps. That's the kind of question to take to people's PMs if they're willing. Similarly, while we encourage friendliness and familiarity with other users, posts should always have some kind of thread-relevant purpose; for instance, if you want to wish someone a happy birthday, feel free to, but if it's the only thing in the post, it's off-topic and needs something else alongside it. Again, though, while we strive for a friendly atmosphere, this is not Facebook; life updates are fun, but unless they have some kind of impact on your thread participation, please do not bring it here - we have Yack Fest for that.
- Please refrain from asking anything along the lines of "How Did We Miss This One?" In almost every case, the answer is simply "No one thought about it before". This Is a Wiki where everyone has different interests, and the fact that people missed a particular candidate, even one that seems like a textbook example of a trope or a character who is particularly iconic in pop culture, means absolutely nothing. The question is disruptive, has a simple and consistent answer, and provides nothing to any discussion.
- If you are suspended from parts of the website, it is still possible to participate!
- For users who are suspended from editing the wiki, you still have full access to this thread. You can propose candidates and write them up with no issues whatsoever; while you will have to ask someone else to post the entry to the relevant pages once it is done, all write-ups are considered thread-approved - as in, done by consensus - and thus doing so does not violate any rules regarding meatpuppeting.
- If you are suspended from the forums, your participation is limited but not impossible. It is still possible for a forum-suspended user to assist in creating the write-up for a character who has already been approved; as previously mentioned, write-ups are inherently considered a consensus-based edit and thus not tied to any one particular user. However, you can not assist in the proposal of a character; as a proposal is based around the forum rather than the wiki, doing so with a forum suspension qualifies as meatpuppeting.
- Please keep all discussions "in-house".
- What other wikis use for CM equivalents is irrelevant here.
- Please be wary of using other wikis, Fandom or otherwise, as sources of information. They are just as fallible as a site like Wikipedia in regards to accuracy because they can be edited by any user, just as this site can.
- Do not attempt to force a communication with an author in an attempt to gather evidence or settle a debate; besides the fact that this is a YMMV trope and thus author intent has variable weight depending on the circumstance, doing so may cross the line into drama exportation, which is prohibited site-wide.
If you would like to use an EP for your candidate, here's the general format. This format does not have to be followed exactly, but these are the main topics that need to be covered:
What is the work?
This is a brief summary of the work you're going to discuss. We don't need a full plot summary here, just however much we need to understand going into the discussion — it can even be as simple as quoting the summary on the work's page.
Who is the candidate and what have they done?
This is essentially the character's biography — who they are, their story, the crimes they commit, and, preferably (though not required), what happens to the candidate at the end. It does not have to include every single thing they ever do — for some villains, we'd be here all day if that was the case — but it should include the highlights of their journey.
Any redeeming qualities? Freudian Excuse?
This is where any potential redeeming characteristics or tragic backstory should be discussed. Do they have a tragic past? Do they show that Even Evil Has Standards or Even Evil Has Loved Ones? Maybe a Pet the Dog moment or two? This is where these should be discussed in full. Not every potential redeeming moment is a clear-cut disqualifier, but we should hear of any potential issues to ensure the character is discussed in full.
Are they bad enough?
A Complete Monster has to be particularly vile by the standard of the work they appear in. Therefore, you should look at what the character does compared to similar characters in the same work. This takes into account things like:
- Their resource level (a human Serial Killer can't stand up to an alien Omnicidal Maniac, but they can be bad by the standard of other human serial killers)
- The amount of time they have to work with (such as a one-shot character versus long-running antagonists)
- The quantity vs. quality of their crimes compared to others (someone with a lower victim count but far more visceral and personal crimes could be considered as equally bad overall as someone with a higher body count but less horror involved)
Essentially, this section is an analysis of the kinds of villainy shown in the work and an explanation of why this particular character's villainy stands out within it.
Final verdict?
This is where you post your final conclusion on the character in question. You can continue elaborating on your reasons or even just say a simple "yes" or "no"; at this point, we've heard everything we need to hear.
IMPORTANT NOTICE: This thread tackles very serious and dark matters on a daily basis. We will be discussing things like murder, rape, torture, human trafficking, crimes against children, and in particularly dark cases, several of these issues at the same time. We keep a lighthearted air, but all candidates carry the general assumption that these are awful individuals committing disgusting crimes. We ask that if you participate, you do so with the requisite seriousness such dark topics require; exclamations of how gross something is, whether serious or sarcastic, are disrespectful to the topics at hand, and if you cannot handle such topics, please do not participate.
And that's everything you need to know. Welcome to the thread!
Edited by Twiddler on Jan 17th 2024 at 5:42:49 AM
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Where should Kazuki go on the page? Seems like it's the original continuity, but canonocity is odd.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Sinara
Edited by YorkobeShounen on Nov 24th 2023 at 4:29:31 AM
The Ultimate Lifeform
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Did you see that you hadn't put Intendant Kira in the discussion dates page?
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Oh, forgot that. Feel free to add it yourself (in fact, people who aren't doing that please start doing that if you're able).
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Lies and Violence!
Do you mean pending? It’s generally expected that the posters do it themselves. ![[nja]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/user_ninja_2074.png "[nja]"){kind=small}
Re: Sinara and redeeming qualities, if anyone does have any solid proof of her genuinely loving Kasius, please feel free to bring it up. There’s a reason I took so long to do her; I looked through everything pretty thoroughly, and I believe/am willing to argue that most of her actions can be explained through a selfish/insincere lens, but I fully welcome discussion, because this has always felt like a weird one.
Edited by EmeraldEmperor on Nov 24th 2023 at 7:41:34 AM
Showtime!
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
BTW, I assume Izel doesn't count because she cares about Pach and her people?
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
The Ultimate Lifeform
Just as an FYI ACW, the reason I ask if you can make the input is because I am a west coaster, and run on Pacific Time so I'm 3-4 hours behind the times input in the draft dates.
Lies and Violence!
Yeah, she goes into a lot more detail about freeing their people compared to him ranting about pain and glory, and she goes out of her way to try to free Pachy from his slumber out of love for him.
Caesar
@ACW: For now I'd say slot Kazuki just in "Original continuity" after Part 3 and before Part 4, it's debatably canon but nothing rock solid disqualifying it from such.
Also added a rewrite Snoke made for mainline!William Afton to the drafts since that got approved a month or so ago and got missed.
WHAT A WONDERFUL DAY!
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Forgo: Fair enough.
Though honestly, changing the time is easy on my part.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Caesar
Can't Forgo just add on 3 hours from wherever they are to make it simpler? It shouldn't fall on you, ACW. If they propose someone at 6 PM Pacific, then they can just add the 3 hours then add character to the pending and note it's for 9 PM.
![[down]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_down.png "[down]"){kind=icon}
Trust me, no one's gonna come after you for even if you happen to be a couple hours off. You don't have anything to worry about.
Edited by Ravok on Nov 24th 2023 at 6:02:11 AM
WHAT A WONDERFUL DAY!
The Ultimate Lifeform
Okay, okay I'm just worried I would get the rounding wrong with the exact times.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Eh, it's no real big deal. Nobody really rules lawyers it anyway.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Going to abstain on Sinera myself… it’s kinda hinging on potential care for her boss and I’m not sure if it’s not clear enough or present but just not explicit, I’m hesitant with her.
I’ll take a potato chip… and EAT IT!
To Makarov, Sinara, the Troll, and Josef Strobe.
Caesar
Oh and Yes to Makarov since I forgot to vote on that one, good work, Jackie!
Here's a recent show that's flown below a lot of radars but is killer.
What's the work?
Fright Krewe released just last month on Hulu and Peacock, a Dreamworks Animation production that is created in part by Eli Roth ![[lol]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/lol2v12_4863.png "[lol]"){kind=small}
An animated series set in New Orleans, it follows a group of 5 teenagers who are gifted the power of the "Loa", and their various journeys through a southern gothic landscape to uncover the truth of their powers; the existence of all kinds of monsters in their town; and face off against the Mayor Pain and his demonic partner.
One half of the Big Bad Duumvirate, Mayor Richard Furst, is driven wholly by the death of his wife, pushing him on a quest for vengeance against the "monsters" he blames. His partner and the true Big Bad of the series, though...
Who is Belial? What has he done?
- An ancient, fear-eating demon who once roamed the lands spreading all manner of misery and death so he could gorge himself on the "tasty" fear and become evermore powerful, Belial is responsible for a variety of tragedies past; he spread a strain of yellow fever through the nation that killed thousands, and he tried to burn down a school of children in the early 1800s—"That fire was to be the feast of a lifetime. The fear of children is a delicacy."
- When the headmistress of the latter school saved the children, Belial spitefully punished her by sealing her mouth shut, suffocating her, and cursing her mute ghost to wander the school for hundreds of years, only saved by the Krewe's efforts.
- At some point, Belial was sealed inside the crypt Am Nan Pwizon, imprisoned in a tree to save humanity from his crimes. Unfortunately, the series kicks off with the Krewe accidentally unleashing Belial, whose first action is to begin magically enhancing the anger of Krewe member Missy and turn her against her friends, before trying to trick her into killing them all.
- Though this fails, Belial feasts on their fear enough to recover some. He comes to the corrupt, hate-filled Mayor Furst and offers an alliance: Belial will help him destroy the (actually completely nice and civilized) vampires and rougarous that Furst blames for his wife's death, and Belial will get to feed on their fear as they die. Belial initially has Furst unleash two grunches—huge lizard monsters—onto the peaceful vampire nightclub, killing multiple vampires and threatening dozens of civilians with death before the Krewe saves them.
- Belial then helps Furst frame the vampires for the murder of rougarou pack leader Malcolm—actually committed by Furst himself—and kickstart a war between vampires and rougarous. They cement this frame up by forcing a man named the Necromancer to alter Malcolm's final memories—a taboo—under threat of death.
- Belial and Furst devise a plan to lure both sides into an isolated location in a field of chamomile, which is lethal to rougarous; the villainous duo will cast a spell that traps them all in place until the sun comes up, burns the vampires alive, and ignites the chamomile to wipe out the rougarous as well, in one swoop.
- The plan begins swimmingly, only for Furst to betray Belial and seemingly trap him to die in the plan, as well. Belial, actually just playing along for his own purposes, goads weakness and goads the Krewe's unofficial leader, Soleil, into stopping Furst in a lethal way. Soleil forcibly turns Furst into a vampire, cutting off his power from the spell and freeing the rest of the vampires and rougarous, who make peace and escape with their lives.
- Belial feeds off the leftover fear and becomes powerful enough to finally end his partnership with Furst, getting Furst burned to death in the rising sun. Belial ends the season preparing the next stage of his plan now that his power is restored, summoning another demon and preparing to make way for his plan to bring Hell on Earth—a scheme the Krewe got a horrifying glimpse of earlier in the season.
Mitigating features?
Noooooone, every other creature in the show is either a flatout lovable, but misguided person (the vampire leaders Fiona and Otis; the rougarou leader Lou), or has redeeming features...but Belial is a conniving demon who feeds on fear not as a food source but a power booster, and gets a cruel relish from it while having nothing positive about him. Demons are not indicated to have any agency issues, and while he's still active by the end of the season? It's solely to set up for next season, and his initial arc is complete as of now, so I think he's fine to discuss at this juncture.
Heinousness?
In the present, he unleashes the grunches onto a nightclub where they kill people and threaten others, and his big plan is to initiate the total annihilation of the vampires and rougarous by tricking them into bloody war then luring them into a trap to wipe them out...all while attempting to kill the Krewe. But it's his backstory—parts of which we outright get in flashbacks—that push Belial way over, between the yellow fever outbreak; setting a schoolhouse ablaze; and condemning the headmistress to an And I Must Scream existence by removing her mouth.
Edited by Ravok on Nov 24th 2023 at 7:45:11 AM
WHAT A WONDERFUL DAY!
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
Ultimate Moral Compass
Belial
Woagh
Ultraman Belial
Introduce a little anarchy
Having rewatched The Revenant once again this Thanksgiving (as per my personal Thanksgiving tradition since this movie is something I am thankful for on behalf of existing, being my fav film), while I know that Fitzgerald was rejected about a month ago and another time about 7 years ago as I noticed days after my EP lol both times for heinousness issues, having paid close attention to scenes in the movie, I may have found a scene that helps clear those issues. Side note: really hope I don't make this too long like last time lol 
Who is Johnathan Fitzgerald? What has he done?
- For a member of the colony of the settlement in the film, Fitzgerald just shows himself to be a scumbag through and through. In one of his first scenes, when their group is being attacked by Ree, Fitzgerald shows concern for the pelts over the men being slaughtered around him. After the survivors escape the scene, Fitzgerald continues being an asshole, particularly towards Glass and his son, Hawk, and tries to guilt-trip him over his past as he polishes his rifle. Does his assholery stop there? Hell, no.
- Glass gets heavily wounded from a bear. After some carrying, they initially prepare to mercy kill him with Fitzgerald supporting this before they decide to instead make a money reward for who brings him back alive. Fitzgerald decides to go with it and later tries to strangle Glass to death with a muzzle. Luckily, Hawk stops him, holding Fitzgerald at gunpoint and attempting to alert Bridger only to get stabbed in the stomach by Fitzgerald who drags him off as he bleeds to death in front of a paralyzed and helpless Glass. When Bridger returns, Fitzgerald pretends that he thought Hawk was with him, leaving him unaware.
- Later, Fitzgerald makes a false alarm about 20 ree being close to Bridger and tricks him into leaving the place after Fitz half-buries Glass as a sarcastic burial and Bridger leaves him with a canteen of water. However, Fitzgerald, after creating flaws in his story, frustratingly confesses to Bridger at gunpoint that he lied before taking the rifle and trying to shoot him in the head with it. The rifle, however, wasn't loaded much to Fitzgerald's frustration as he reluctantly decides to take him with him.
- After a series of traveling, they make it back to the settlement where a remorseless Fitzgerald receives the money reward while a guilty Bridger leaves the room as Fitzgerald makes up lies about their efforts. Glass, however, makes it out as his canteen makes it back to camp, worrying Fitzgerald who takes all the money and takes off with plans to reenlist in Texas while Bridger gets assaulted and taken in by Henry, fortunately getting his innocence proven by Glass' explanation.
- Captain Henry and Glass pursue Fitzgerald, though the former gets shot and scalped as Glass discovers his corpse and uses it to trick Fitzgerald before continuing chasing him. After a long while of pursuit, they arrive nearby a river where Fitzgerald attempts to justify his deeds. When Glass doesn't buy it, Fitzgerald coldly insults Hawk, leading a provoked Glass to engage in a brutal duel to the death. Soon, Glass has Fitzgerald at his mercy before choosing to shove him into the water to some Ree, who grant Fitzgerald a satisfying death.
Heinousness issues?
Since this was the reason he was downvoted, I figured I'd directly address it first. So the problem was his kill count being too low for the trope, being a total of 2, and his attempted kill count not being any bigger, also being a total of 2. However, in a scene in the saloon, there's this discussion he has with Captain Henry while asking him about the money:
- John Fitzgerald: "I was wondering when we might be getting paid for that haul. Because them pelts we collected are still out there, you know, under a couple foot of dirt and snow, but that ain't my fault."
- Captain Henry: "I'm waiting for Captain Leavenworth to arrive with his army. Then, we'll have enough men to shoot some civilization into those f*****g Arikara and get back our pelts."
- John Fitzgerald: "All right. All right. When's that supposed to happen?"
- Captain Henry: "I don't know, but until then, nobody gets paid."
Is this enough to count? Fitzgerald wouldn't exactly be leading the massacre, but he is supporting it, asking when it's supposed to happen, seeming to indicate he intends on participating when the army arrives. Worth noting the Arikara did lead a massacre on Henry's men, but eh, they could have just made the decision to let them be and they're also listing "shooting some civilization" and "getting the pelts back" as their reasoning. If so, this would have boosted Fitzgerald's kill count by a lot, specially since he has a xenophobia against them.
Add the gruesome nature of his kills, one a deep stab in the stomach of a teen and the knife twisted and another scalped as well as him trying to kill Bridger and Glass, the former an attempted shot in the head and the latter an attempted strangle to death with a muzzle and someone he has big personal enmity with, and I'll let you decide if Fitzgerald makes it. In case anyone's wondering why this isn't in the above section, I feared it would have made this too long, so for simplicity's sake, I just decided to include it here.
Mitigating factors?
Assuming the heinousness issues are indeed cleared, Fitzgerald I don't think really has any mitigating factors. He does converse with Bridger at one point in detail about how he was scalped by Ree, but I don't think this is an issue since it isn't really the motivating factor for his deeds. While he does describe the event, he doesn't really say at any point in the film, nor do anything to suggest, that this is why he is the way he is. It's at best conveyed to be a horrible event that happened to him, but not one that has an explicit impact on his character.
It isn't why he's an asshole to the other members of the colony. It isn't why he tries to strangle Glass to death with a muzzle. It isn't why he kills Glass' son, Hawk, by stabbing him in the stomach. It isn't why he tries to kill Bridger. It isn't why he supports his captain planning to massacre the Ree. It isn't why he later on shoots his captain and scalps him. These are all out of a desire to make it out of the situation and reap the benefits that would come with it, like money as Fitzgerald's greedy ass desires, enough to the point of committing several atrocities to get it.
Cares for no one either, that is except for his own greedy ass. The group: gets massacred by approaching Ree. Fitzgerald: "Save the pelts!" Bridger? Tries to blast him in the head with a gun with no remorse. Enough said. His brief expression of worry when killing Hawk is out of fear of being unable to explain the scenario and something he easily subverts when he insults him to Glass' face later on. Guy's just a greedy sociopath willing to kill whoever necessary to get what he wants.
Final Verdict
Am admittedly making this attempted relitigation out of pure curiosity as opposed to a firm belief in him making the cut with the new stuff provided, so I guess I'm neutral on my end? I'm just hoping that I didn't break any rules through this. Overall, I'll let you all decide.
~~Agentof Chaosreporting~~
Still have to vote May for Fitzgerald here. The extant CM is too much for him to match with this
Agreed, Toussiant goes too far in nasty, explicit crimes for Fitzgerald to compare.
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]")
for Makarov, the Troll, and Strobe. I suppose for Sinara as well, assuming her attachment to her boss is purely self-serving as the EP suggests.
There remains a foothold out of this mire — now climb.