Old Complete Monster cleanup thread
Welcome to the Complete Monster proposal thread! This is the thread where new Complete Monster examples are vetted, approved, and written up. If you're looking for the general cleanup thread (for cuts, rewrites, expansions, and the like), please go here
Important: Before suggesting any new examples, please read the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List; if you have any questions, the odds are high they are answered there. Additionally, please check here for the earliest date a work can be discussed (usually two weeks from the U.S. release date) and whether the work has already been reserved by another user.
Here is how the process works:
- If you have a candidate to propose, you can simply come right in and propose them! If the character's run is brief, such as a single issue of a comic book, then a simple summary of their actions and any potential redeeming qualities will be enough; for longer-running candidates, an effortpost (EP) might be helpful for organizing the proposal. An EP is not outright required, but please be mindful that if a post becomes too clunky and unorganized, it can be very hard for other people to follow.
- After the proposal, there will be a 72-hour discussion and voting period, where people may ask questions and vote on the candidate. The number of upvotes must outnumber the downvotes by at least five for the character to be considered "approved".
- Three days after the proposal has been made, if the character has been approved, you may post the writeup (the text to be posted on the trope page itself) on the thread and send it to the drafts page. Your candidate will soon be added to the CM subpage. If the work has a page, you should add your candidate to the relevant YMMV page. Voila! It's that simple!
Outside of this process, we do have a few ground rules:
- To keep the thread moving at a reasonable pace, there are some restrictions on when a proposal can be made. There should only be a maximum of four EPs posted both per page and per hour to ensure that nothing gets lost in the shuffle; additionally, each individual troper should only be proposing or writing up characters from a maximum of three works at a time (from initial proposals to end of their voting period). If your proposal would fall outside of either of these guidelines, we'd like to ask you to please wait until they would fit within; feel free to type them up on an outside document, and then when the time comes, you can just copy, paste, and post!
- No plagiarism of any kind. This is a very serious matter site-wide, as the website could get in actual legal trouble over this; as a result, this can very quickly lead to mod intervention. This can take many different forms:
- Direct plagiarism, i.e. wholesale copying. This is not only the easiest to find, but is also the most likely to warrant quick moderator intervention. To be clear, quoting in some places is perfectly acceptable, but it has to be very clear you're quoting from something else and it cannot be anything longer than a sentence or two - if you're quoting an entire work summary from Wikipedia, no one is going to believe you've actually consumed the work, so even if you cite your source, your candidate will be downvoted anyway.
- Self-plagiarism. Even if you can prove that you wrote the same text in both places, the site itself can't contain any of the duplicated text. If you already wrote something once before, it's not too hard to write it a second time.
- Using another site's work as a template for a proposal. Just because you don't copy and paste something directly doesn't mean it's any harder to detect if you're basing parts or all of your proposal on text someone else wrote. To be clear, this doesn't violate site rules and won't lead to mod intervention, but just like if you directly plagiarize, no one will believe you've consumed the work if you're clearly basing your proposal on something else. This thread largely operates on the honor system, and tweaking someone else's work to pass it off as your own is one of the fastest ways to lose trust.
- Votes must be for specific candidates, meaning no blanket voting (i.e. "yes to everyone I missed").
- If you are the first person to downvote a candidate, please provide an explanation of why when you do so. We're here for discussions above all, and a hit-and-run downvote doesn't facilitate anything.
- If a work is already reserved by another user, please don't comment on the work or any potential characters worth discussion before the discussion date. We know how exciting it is when a work has a keeper that you're waiting to talk about, but it's not fair to the person who reserved the work who is just as excited to lead the discussion to see the discussion getting spoiled before they get to do it. On the other hand, if the reservation only has one name attached, shoot them a PM - they may be down for a collaboration, which will get you in on the fun as well!
- Please keep the thread on-topic. While discussing the trope is fun and we encourage people to enjoy it, questions like "who's your favorite CM" are off-topic and can lead to thumps. That's the kind of question to take to people's PMs if they're willing. Similarly, while we encourage friendliness and familiarity with other users, posts should always have some kind of thread-relevant purpose; for instance, if you want to wish someone a happy birthday, feel free to, but if it's the only thing in the post, it's off-topic and needs something else alongside it. Again, though, while we strive for a friendly atmosphere, this is not Facebook; life updates are fun, but unless they have some kind of impact on your thread participation, please do not bring it here - we have Yack Fest for that.
- Please refrain from asking anything along the lines of "How Did We Miss This One?" In almost every case, the answer is simply "No one thought about it before". This Is a Wiki where everyone has different interests, and the fact that people missed a particular candidate, even one that seems like a textbook example of a trope or a character who is particularly iconic in pop culture, means absolutely nothing. The question is disruptive, has a simple and consistent answer, and provides nothing to any discussion.
- If you are suspended from parts of the website, it is still possible to participate!
- For users who are suspended from editing the wiki, you still have full access to this thread. You can propose candidates and write them up with no issues whatsoever; while you will have to ask someone else to post the entry to the relevant pages once it is done, all write-ups are considered thread-approved - as in, done by consensus - and thus doing so does not violate any rules regarding meatpuppeting.
- If you are suspended from the forums, your participation is limited but not impossible. It is still possible for a forum-suspended user to assist in creating the write-up for a character who has already been approved; as previously mentioned, write-ups are inherently considered a consensus-based edit and thus not tied to any one particular user. However, you can not assist in the proposal of a character; as a proposal is based around the forum rather than the wiki, doing so with a forum suspension qualifies as meatpuppeting.
- Please keep all discussions "in-house".
- What other wikis use for CM equivalents is irrelevant here.
- Please be wary of using other wikis, Fandom or otherwise, as sources of information. They are just as fallible as a site like Wikipedia in regards to accuracy because they can be edited by any user, just as this site can.
- Do not attempt to force a communication with an author in an attempt to gather evidence or settle a debate; besides the fact that this is a YMMV trope and thus author intent has variable weight depending on the circumstance, doing so may cross the line into drama exportation, which is prohibited site-wide.
If you would like to use an EP for your candidate, here's the general format. This format does not have to be followed exactly, but these are the main topics that need to be covered:
What is the work?
This is a brief summary of the work you're going to discuss. We don't need a full plot summary here, just however much we need to understand going into the discussion — it can even be as simple as quoting the summary on the work's page.
Who is the candidate and what have they done?
This is essentially the character's biography — who they are, their story, the crimes they commit, and, preferably (though not required), what happens to the candidate at the end. It does not have to include every single thing they ever do — for some villains, we'd be here all day if that was the case — but it should include the highlights of their journey.
Any redeeming qualities? Freudian Excuse?
This is where any potential redeeming characteristics or tragic backstory should be discussed. Do they have a tragic past? Do they show that Even Evil Has Standards or Even Evil Has Loved Ones? Maybe a Pet the Dog moment or two? This is where these should be discussed in full. Not every potential redeeming moment is a clear-cut disqualifier, but we should hear of any potential issues to ensure the character is discussed in full.
Are they bad enough?
A Complete Monster has to be particularly vile by the standard of the work they appear in. Therefore, you should look at what the character does compared to similar characters in the same work. This takes into account things like:
- Their resource level (a human Serial Killer can't stand up to an alien Omnicidal Maniac, but they can be bad by the standard of other human serial killers)
- The amount of time they have to work with (such as a one-shot character versus long-running antagonists)
- The quantity vs. quality of their crimes compared to others (someone with a lower victim count but far more visceral and personal crimes could be considered as equally bad overall as someone with a higher body count but less horror involved)
Essentially, this section is an analysis of the kinds of villainy shown in the work and an explanation of why this particular character's villainy stands out within it.
Final verdict?
This is where you post your final conclusion on the character in question. You can continue elaborating on your reasons or even just say a simple "yes" or "no"; at this point, we've heard everything we need to hear.
IMPORTANT NOTICE: This thread tackles very serious and dark matters on a daily basis. We will be discussing things like murder, rape, torture, human trafficking, crimes against children, and in particularly dark cases, several of these issues at the same time. We keep a lighthearted air, but all candidates carry the general assumption that these are awful individuals committing disgusting crimes. We ask that if you participate, you do so with the requisite seriousness such dark topics require; exclamations of how gross something is, whether serious or sarcastic, are disrespectful to the topics at hand, and if you cannot handle such topics, please do not participate.
And that's everything you need to know. Welcome to the thread!
Edited by Twiddler on Jan 17th 2024 at 5:42:49 AM
With regards to Ehssk, it's worth noting that the Viis are nigh Always Chaotic Evil, with almost none of them depicted sympathetically. Curing the Dancing Death isn't depicted as a good thing in the plot, with the decline caused by the plague posing an opportunity for their tyrannical rule to be toppled and the abiru freed (which is the driving motivation of the protagonist).
And as Emperor Geode said, his politeness does seem to boil down to Faux Affably Evil. Between his experimentation and the conditions in the lab, it comes across as detachment from the reality of what he's inflicting onto his subjects.
I'm gonna have to wait for someone who knows Rave Master better than me and alone I'd take it as a Faux Affably Evil villain but if he's doing experiments to cure a plague and treats his captives with respect I'm concerned about a warped Well-Intentioned Extremist.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Yes to Sara, agreed with the above about Ehssk.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Professor Gigachad
Since we have a new page I will release my next one.
What is the Work?
Mega Man: Defender of the Human Race is a fanfic of the Mega Man franchise that is primarily based on the Ruby-Spears cartoon series, serving as a pseudo sequel to that. The plot mostly follows the original cartoon with Mega Man going up against Dr. Wily, but it does introduce some new threats to talk about.
Who is Sunstar and What Has He Done?
Sunstar is once again the ancient god-like being worshipped by the Stardroids who makes his mark as the main villains of Episode 14. Sunstar in the past was leading the Stardroids in a quest across the universe to conquer and purge it of what they saw as inferior life. One of Sunstar's most important generals was Luna who was they one responsible, under Sunstar's orders, for destroying entire planets by freeing them solid. They were opposed by the robot Duo who they at one point forced to watch as they would destroy an entire planet in front of him. However, Duo eventually is able to defeat the Stardroids and sealed away Sunstar and Luna.
Terra would take over as the leader of the Stardroids and work the bring back Sunstar. During the events of the chapter, Terra is eventually able to resurrect Sunstar. Sunstar would lead the Stardrois into taking over Earth as well as planning to bring back Luna as well so that she could assist with everything. Sunstar would take over all screens in the world and broadcast their invasion to the entire world. However, the heroes are able to foil their invasion nad take out the Stardroids.
Does He have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Nothing of the sorts. Unlike Sunstar's canon counterpart who has many redeeming traits despite his evil, this version is presented as little more than a monster who sees himself as a god above everyone else and seeks to rule the world and purge it of anyone he seems inferior.
Does He meet the Heinousness Standard?
Mass planet destroyer. I think you know the answer.
Final Verdict?
A keeper.
CM Sandboxes, MB Sandboxes
Now that it's on a proper page.....
I'm wondering if Slade from Rave Master can be reevaluated.
What is the Work
Rave Master, a manga by Hiro Mashima before he got big with Fairy Tail. It's pretty standard stuff (main hero Haru Glory goes on quest to find artifacts and defeat the bad guys, makes friends along the way) but I have fond memories of it and Mashima does make some elements work. It already has two candidates listed (Ogre and Shakuma Raregroove), but I think a candidate who had been removed deserves a reevaluation.
Who is he? What has done?
Slade, an officer in the Empire and an old friend of Haru's father. See, Haru's dad and the series initial Big Bad King were once friends, and they founded an organization called the Demon Card (Shadow Guard in the dub) to fight evil and protect the week. They drifted apart, and Haru's dad left to start a family. Over the next 15 years King became desperate to provide for his followers and so resorted to increasingly dubious methods, such as relying on artifacts called the Dark Bring. They became successful, but also little more than a terrorist organization; Haru's dad found out and tried to get King to disband the organization. King refused.....and it's at this point Slade enters the picture.
Slade is an old friend of Haru's dad, with ambitions to rise above second lieutenant. Haru's dad gets in touch with him and reveals were the Demon Card headquarters is in an attempt to stop King's terrorist activities. Unfortunately, Slade REALLY wants that promotion and so rather than giving King the chance to surrender he has his men go in guns blazing; when King begs them to leave his wife and son out of it Slade coldly has his men shoot anyway, with the result being that King's wife dies and his son is presumed dead (in reality he survives and is locked in a hellhole prison for 10 years). Gale is naturally horrified and pins him to a wall, demanding answers. Slade casually tells him they'll arrest King and that "You never said anything about the others."
Three days pass, with Haru's dad sitting in the remains of the headquarters. Slade approaches him, casually dismissing how awful Haru's dad feels and ecstatic that he's going to be getting a promotion next month. Thing is, he knows there's another founder of Demon Card at large and his superiors want that guy brought in too. At the point he pulls a gun on Haru's dad, telling him to come with him quietly. Unfortunately for Slade King had escaped prison and cuts him down.
Mitigating Factors?
That's a laugh. Most of what we see of Slade is that he's an ambitious little weasel who will do whatever it takes to get a promotion. He's utterly callous to the fact that King's wife and child are in the crossfire, and it's very clear that his reason for going in guns blazing is because he wants his superiors to notice him and give him a promotion.
The closest we see is when he tells Haru's dad to come in quietly so no one gets hurt, but given everything else and the fact that he's still selling out a friend (who wasn't even involved in Demon Card's illicit activities on account of leaving before they turned evil) and even this rings rather hollow (especially since he has a gun to his head while asking this).
Heinous Standard? The other two contenders Ogre and Shakuma have pretty impressive rap sheets, but the thing is? They're a demon lord and a Powerful sorcerer respectively. Slade's basically a lowly lieutenant hoping to make it big, and has far less resources than either of them.
And while the attack on the Demon Card base is his only real atrocity it's a pretty nasty one even leaving aside that many of the members were criminals. The long term consequences of the massacre however are what really stand out. BOTH of the main antagonists in the series ultimately went evil because of what happened; King (Big Bad number 1) was a criminal but even then it was largely a desire to ensure the people under his care were able to support their loved ones. It's not until the bloodbath that ensured, as well as the death of his wife (and seeming death of his son) that he snaps and becomes obsessed with destroying the world. The other Big Bad....is King's son, who survived getting shot but was locked in prison for ten years. While in there he made contact with one of the most powerful Dark Brings, which combined with the sheer hell he endured for ten years ultimately turned him into an Omnicidal Maniac obsessed with destroying the world.
So despite being a minor character who appears in two chapters, this jackass indirectly caused every atrocity that the two main antagonists committed.
Does he qualify?
I think a case can be made, but I'll leave it to the thread.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Yes to Sunstar.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Yes to Sunstar. So are the Viis in a similar deal to the Aen Elle (unfortunate English pronunciation) where they're striving to keep off the apocalypse for the sake of survival but otherwise an awful, slaving race?
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
If that's the case, that's more Pragmatic Villainy than WIE, and I'd allow it myself.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Not the Eye
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Sunstar and given how horibble Viis are from trope page Ehssk as well.
Yes, the Viis are definitely the villains of the trilogy. Their empire is built on the backs of enslaved species, who are kept in line with violence and poverty while the Viis live in luxury. The Viis people are at risk of dying out from the Dancing Death, the lingering genetic impact of which is causing widespread infertility and birth defects. That's in addition to the Empire declining from loss of technological knowledge, sabotage, rebellion, and a general head-in-the-sand attitude from the Viis all across the board.
I'm not sure I'd put too much regard into Ehssk addressing his subjects with respect, since it doesn't really count for much when he's keeping them in cages and using them as breeding stock for his genetic experiments. Even if it is genuine, it still speaks of a degree of psychopathy.
I'd also disagree with the Pragmatic Villainy assessment, since it's canonically established that Ehssk isn't delivering useful results from his hybrid-breeding experiments. Now that I think about it more, it's as if he's convinced himself that that particular line of research is absolutely necessary to curing the plague, and is in denial of the thought that it isn't going to.
Sunstar and Ehssk. I've put up a candidate myself.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
That sounds more like For Science! than anything else.
RIP Toriyama
Yes to Conduit, Ensign, Ehssk with the clarification, and Sunstar. Still reading Slade.
Gonna have us another Bayformers candidate coming tomorrow that I'm excited for!
Tonight I dine on monkey soup.
I think Ehssk would definitely be a good candidate for For Science!. But I don't think that would be mutually-exclusive from Complete Monster.
to Sunstar, Sara and The Conduit.
The Emperor of Evil!
to Ehssk, Slade, Conduit, and Sunstar.
Best Smile
Ensign, Bara Nightmare, Omen, Orchard, Teacher, Black Queen, Cursa, Bowser, Ivan, Nancy, Hunter, Walker, Brahms Doll, Jacob, Alien Pedan, Phibious, Evelyn, Beatrice, Myndhal, Crone, Domingo, Katsuma, Quini and Sebastián, Maegor, Gordon, Dean, Eva, Hitler, Rubrick, Conduit, Sunstar, Sara, Ehssk, Slade.
![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
Double, Navarro.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Oh, definitely not exclusive.
Not the Eye
Yes to Slade
Edited by EmperorGeode on Jan 27th 2023 at 2:19:10 AM
Slade, Conduit, and Sunstar.
I’m also fine giving Ehssk a
Showtime!
to Sunstar, Slade and Esshk
to Sunstar, Slade and Esshk
Man in the Yellow Hat
I mean, Ehssk still does sound kinda iffy to me, though even if it is redeeming, its one of the worst redeeming qualities I've ever seen. Obviously, saving his species seems to be intertwined into it somehow, but is his goal of saving his people his actual goal, or is it just an unintended side effect or an excuse he tells everyone to do experiments, while pursuing some other goal that isn't redeeming (wanting to save himself from the plague, getting to do research, being a Viis supremacist and wanting to save the "master race", being a sadist and wanting the Viis to cause more suffering, wanting an excuse to cut open bodies, wanting money from the payment, etc.)?
Edited by Purgatoryisof2 on Jan 27th 2023 at 5:49:06 AM
He/Him
Goku Black
Slade and Ehssk
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]")
There is currently 4 proposals on this page you need to wait until next page to post it.
CM Sandboxes, MB Sandboxes