Old Complete Monster cleanup thread
Welcome to the new Complete Monster (CM) cleanup thread! This thread is where we clean up or cut already-existing entries.
If you're looking to add new entries, please see the approval thread.
IMPORTANT: Before you begin any discussions on this thread, please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List. Here, you'll find explanations of the criteria for the trope as well as our rules/procedures for approving and cutting candidates.
What goes through this thread?
- Cut requests. If you believe a CM has been approved and they do not count, this thread is where you propose their removal. To know how to go about this, please see the FAQ folder on the Administrivia page, where the process is explained in detail.
- If we ever need to consider cutting multiple examples without individually reviewing them (e.g. if we discover widespread plagiarism with a particular troper's CMs), the initial discussion will be on this thread and we'll then escalate to the mod team (as described here) to get a formal consensus if we decide to recommend a mass cut.
- If an entry was put on the wrong subpage/YMMV page, you may propose where they should be moved to.
- Full rewrites of existing entries, including expansions, trims, and ground-up rewrites. If your rewrite is approved by the thread, feel free to add it to the drafts page so that other users can check grammar and the like before it is included with the rest of the weekly swaps.
- If an entry on a work's YMMV page doesn't match the entry on the media subpage, you can bring it here to discuss which entry works better.
What does not go through this thread?
- New candidate proposals - as stated before, those are done on this thread.
- Unapproved wicks - if a Troper encounters either of these kinds of wicks, they can be cut with no approval.
- Any CM link on a non-YMMV page - as a YMMV trope, it should not be linked on those pages regardless of any cleanup effort. The only exception is if the wick is being used within the definition of another trope.
- If an CM link on a YMMV page refers to an unapproved character. If it refers to an approved character on any such page, the wick can stay. On the other hand, if the unapproved character being linked to sounds like they might have promise (and you don't feel like checking it out for yourself), feel free to mention it on the approval thread - someone may already know why they don't count, or it could invite a brand new discussion!
- Proposals for images, quotes, and videos of already-approved CMs - quotes and images are proposed on the approval thread, while videos can be uploaded normally as they are screened for approval by the moderation.
- Crosswicking examples to YMMV pages - if an example has already been approved and added to the main page, you do not require any special permission to add the example to a work's YMMV page (assuming the work has a page already). If a YMMV page doesn't exist yet, then you can make it yourself, but either way, feel free to just add the example without asking.
- Small changes to existing entries - these can simply be done on a Troper's own prerogative with no approval.
- Spelling and grammar fixes.
- Pothole changes.
- Minor rewordings.
- Spoiler tags.
While these changes do not require any kind of approval, it is requested that should you make any of these changes, you do one of the following:
- Make the same changes on the relevant Sandbox page, then add the Sandbox to the list at the bottom of the drafts page. This will add the Sandbox to the weekly swaps and ensure that the edits end up on the relevant locked page. If the Sandbox is already listed, then once you make the edits, your job is already done!
- If you don't know how the Sandboxes work or simply don't have the time to find it, then you can simply post on the thread about the changes you made. Someone else can then make the edit on the relevant Sandbox and add it to the weekly swaps.
- Alternatively, you can simply request that the change be made directly to the locked page on the Locked Pages thread. Members of this thread keep track of that one, so we will ensure that the changes are made in the Sandbox so that it doesn't get deleted during the next swap.
Again, these changes don't require any approval, but we prefer to keep the entries on the YMMV pages and the locked pages the same in order to avoid any miscommunication or errors between entries, so if you do make the change, we would greatly appreciate it if you could ensure the change is made on the locked page as well.
As a final note, we do not care what other sites have to say regarding whether or not a character counts. We have our own criteria and they have theirs for their CM equivalents; while they are similar, they are not exactly the same and should not be treated as such. Another site removing a character from their equivalent should not be a reason why a cut is proposed here, and if this is the case, it will likely lead to mod intervention.
Other than this, once again, welcome to the cleanup thread, and we look forward to your contributions!
Edited by Mrph1 on Jan 14th 2024 at 11:30:03 AM
Hey, wanted to talk about the Gaiaphage, an approved candidate from the Gone series, a YA science fantasy novel collection. I fully agree with her/its inclusion, but what's relevant is that there are actually 2 incarnations of this character with completely different personalities (one seems to acknowledge the other as different as well).
There's the first incarnation of the Gaiaphage that looks like a glowing green mass of rocks and was spawned from a virus made by an alien species who wanted to create life. However, it soon crash landed on earth and fused with the DNA of a human man, desiring instead to take control of every living creature on the planet. It alters the fabric of reality and mutates certain animals and people, indirectly causing pretty much every event in the series to occur. It also appears to be hyperintelligent, capable of meticulously planning every part of it plan to end the FAYZ by killing everyone there, including its creator Little Pete. Only talking about this incarnation, an argument could actually be made for it lacking characterization to be a CM if it wasn't for its role in the book Lies where it directly manipulates several characters into causing chaos and even attempting suicide.
The second incarnation is the original Gaiaphage's human state (in a body of a girl it took over at her birth). This character is actually called Gaia Soren-Ladris, and while it starts out having the same motivations and desires as its predecessor, being human changes it (although by no means for the better). For starters, in contrast to her past incarnation, she is completely immature and prefers to act on satisfaction as opposed to dominance. Her motivation even changes with this (which proves she has moral agency) when she realizes how boring controlling everyone would be, so she instead decides she wants to keep a few the same to torture and play with. While the narratively seems to heavily indicate that she is simply the reinvention of the previous Gaiaphage as opposed to a new individual entirely, she seems to refer to the past incarnation as her father (although not in any way that displays care) which is most likely just based on how she differentiates herself with her past self. I believe a situation like this should be handled similarly to how the Master from Doctor Who is dealt with where different incarnations of the same character are treated as seperate, I don't see how the Gaiaphage/Gaia should be any different
I always saw Gaia as a continuation of the Gaiaphage and not another incarnation, but it's been a while since I've reread Gone
REALITY IS AN ILLUSION, THE UNIVERSE IS A HOLOGRAM, BUY GOLD BYEEEE! | She/Her
It is a continuation, but being human changed the Gaiaphage completely. Different personality, different motivations and a different way of doing things. I think it's enough of a change in-universe to treat them separately, similar to what is done with time lords.
Berserk Button: misusing Berserk Button
Speaking of, can someone expand Gaia’s writeup and/or trim Derek’s? Gaia’s feels way too small and barebones for the series Big Bad, and Derek’s is 3 times bigger.
![[down]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_down.png "[down]"){kind=icon}
Ok, but Gaia’s definitely feels like it’s leaving out stuff.
Edited by MasterN on Mar 4th 2024 at 12:40:58 PM
One of these days, all of you will accept me as your supreme overlord.
Goku Black
Tbf Derek 's the heavy of the series and one of the most iconic ya villains. So I don't mind the length.
Plus that write up leaves out stuff. Like the fsct bwteen series he becomes a Serial Killer and Serial Rapist.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Goku Black
He's immortal so to beat him they drop him inside the mariana trench for all of eternity
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."Oh yeah, in the sequel trilogy Drake is a borderline Plot-Irrelevant Villain but we find out he's become a Serial Killer/ Serial Rapist who routinely tortures people he comes across (he's hiding in the mountains) to death, like he has 3 bodies crucified on a cave wall with railway spikes and he mentions he gave them water specifically to make sure they lived longer just to suffer more, saying he got one of them to last a whole month before she died
Rewriting Drake's and the Gaiaphage's entries has been on my do-to list for a while now, I've just never got around to it REALITY IS AN ILLUSION, THE UNIVERSE IS A HOLOGRAM, BUY GOLD BYEEEE! | She/Her
I watched The Forgotten Battle and... just cut out the duet. The rule and oppression of Oberst Berghof and Pim Den Over are not shown in detail. There are no mass arrests or killings. At most, at the beginning of the film you can see how one guy is getting better, but firstly, this is when the Nazis were leaving, and secondly, it is not clear what happened to him. And that's it, the film never pays attention to the Berghof's rule; we don't see him arresting and executing residents for any disrespect. At some points in the film, some tension and suspense are implied, but this is implied and there is nowhere near any facts that would point to a mass arrest and execution. And yes, in this case, one of the most important crimes of Den Over is also objectively absent.
But even so, they could have stayed thanks to their role in the massacre, which is in the film. But it turns out that they don’t even participate in it. ,,Oever would also participate in the Battle of Walcheren Causeway killing numerous Allied soldiers himself"...this is not in the film. Simply not. After the execution of members of the Resistance (the only important crime for the duo, which really belongs to them and is in the film) that he, that Berghof disappears from the film forever. The Nazis were commanded by a completely different person. It’s just worth saying that he has a mustache, which neither Berghof nor Over has. Technically, as the commandant in control of Zealandia, he is sort of in charge, but he is simply removed from the battle itself and plays an extremely passive role in it. If he plays any role at all. And now the fatality will be in relation to Over. His rape....belongs to another Nazi. Firstly, they call him Fritz, and secondly, he has a different hair color and a completely different facial structure than Over. I have no idea how G confused the two Nazis. Even rape itself is not as bad as it sounds. Fritz orders Tuntje to lie down, and as soon as she refuses, he simply tries to kill her.
Over is not trying to rape, he and Berghof are not commanding carnage, these actions are carried out by other Nazis and are not even as bad as it seems. For example, even though a lot of Canadians died, quite a few survived. Although the massacre is still terrible and if Over and Berghof actually took part in it, it would still count towards them. Oh and one last thing, about those 3 innocent boys...no, they weren't executed before Dirk was caught. They were caught not for showing respect, but because they believed that they were to blame for the deaths of the soldiers. Dirk's father asks to let them go and that's it. We will never know their ultimate fate. It's not clear how G confused the 4 Nazis with each other when they all have different faces. And yes, Over ended up with one unpleasant torture: report to your boss about the help of Mariun Tuntje, command the murder of 5 rebels and that’s it. And Berghof gives the order to execute 5 rebels, forces Mariunas to kill and sends him to the Battle of the Scheldt, in the hope of killing him and that’s it. Which is unpleasant, but very little.
(sigh) Just cut them out decisively. A striking example of distortion of real things and misinformation.
Goku Black
Yeah keep removed. It sounds too little for a war fikm and that all the bad guys blend together
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Yes, that's another problem. Without all this action, both villains simply blend in with the others. There was another evil psychopathic soldier who shot a German teenager just because he was very scared by the corpse of a German soldier falling on him. Both villains are yet another evil Nazi among other evil Nazis.
A Girl, Just One of Many Kinds
I’ll advocate for Agent Trout counting being a fan of We Bare Bears. His original EP wasn’t plagiarized as I’ve checked and I can vouch him counting. He basically imprisons and systematically abused dozens of sapient grizzly bears and cubs for his own xenophobia superiority, with no plans to stop doing this until humans stayed as the superior species, and was willing to leave them all to die in a fire in the end, and lacks any comedic moments at all.
Keep Fighting. Keep Loving.
~Ghal Sur one question: some days ago you proposed a cut for Ben Yusuf from El Cid: The Legend on accounts that the ban evader greatly exaggerated his evil. But looking at their EP, I'm asking: did you watch the original Spanish version or a translated version? Because they do mention here that there was some Bowdlerization in releases outside Spain. Is it possible you watched one of those versions?
Edited by Rhino8888 on Mar 5th 2024 at 9:17:01 PM
Jogo
Keep the Forgotten Battle Duo removed
"Stand proud, Sukuna, you are strong." | He/Him
I have a concern about a certain candidates write-up, not that the candidate should be cut but that I'm not sure if everything in it is accurate. From Slavic Mythology:
was known as the first recorded vampire. A wicked sorcerer in life who captured and murdered children to use their blood for immortality, Jure Grando eventually succumbed to mortality, only to rise again as a monstrous strigoi. Raping his wife, Jure embarked on a 16-year-long killing spree, feasting on the blood of his own neighbors until it was believed that to go outside at night was a death sentence.
I’ll take a potato chip… and EAT IT!
I also didn’t find that in my research, maybe the effort poster found different information. Unfortunately, he’s no longer with us.
In honor of Akira Toriyama
Looking over the entry from Gacy I’m not so sure I like the edits… at first I thought otherwise but looking at it written out: the kiss my ass thing ultimately isn’t much more than being a Jerkass and I’m not sure why he’s awkwardly being compared to Jeffrey now. I know my entry was short but I think it posited what needed to be said about a character with a single digit minute count for screen time and this feels like grave dancing just to bulk up the word count. It doesn’t read naturally to me.
Sure.
Edited by PassingThrough on Mar 5th 2024 at 8:52:49 AM
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
I can revert it.
I guess I can use Gunman with Three Names for his name?
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
It's been a long time since I reread the Gone series, but I remember that Gaia is treated as an extension of the Gaiaphage, though Humanity Is Infectious as the entity discovers the "joys" of sadism, murder, torture, and attempted incest. Gaia becoming more "human" is ultimately what causes Drake to turn on her, since he can't stand being subordinate to a woman and fantasizes about raping her.
IIRC the sequel series kinda throws that out the window by stating that the Gaiaphage was a mouthpiece for the Dark Watchers behind the mutagenic virus.
Edited by Arawn999 on Mar 5th 2024 at 9:04:47 AM
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
So how's this?
- Dahmer – Monster: The Jeffrey Dahmer Story's "God of Forgiveness, God of Vengeance": John Wayne Gacy is a sadistic Serial Killer and Serial Rapist. Enjoying feeling like a god to his victims, Gacy brutally beats, rapes, and drowns one young man, doing the same to dozens more.
I used the old writeup, just adding "and Serial Rapist" after Serial Killer.
EDIT: Fuck, the character specific rules changed, and no grandfather clause, so we'll have a LOT of changes.
Edited by ACW on Mar 6th 2024 at 6:45:20 AM
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Rhino 8888: Apologize, but no, I only watched the translated one. Honestly, I didn’t notice that the proposal concerned the Spanish version. Thank you very much for noticing. I'll take a look at the original version, but it's unlikely that anything will change much.
By “keep removed” mean leaving the duet cut out? Are there any more voices? This is, if anything, a full-fledged removal. I’ll have one more today.
I’ll take a potato chip… and EAT IT!
Keep Ben, Oberst, and Over removed
In honor of Akira Toriyama
That’s fine ACW.
Edit: Make it kills though, idk if he drowned all his victims, we just know he has more than the one shown.
Edited by PassingThrough on Mar 6th 2024 at 10:20:38 AM
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
I'll change that.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Keep Heinz with note.
Edited by EmperorGeode on Mar 4th 2024 at 4:11:24 AM