Complete Monster Cleanup

So I made a couple of errors in my EP for Telsin Ladrian. I think she still counts, but it is obviously best to run it all by here and see what you all think. This will be long, but I want to be through.

So the thing is that in my EP (which made it into the writeup) I highlighted a moment where Telsin claims that her plan to nuke Elendel would stop Autonomy’s invasion, which would result in the death of all life on Scadrial, and that she is acting in the needs of the many to sacrifice some to save all, however Wax pointed out that her plan would cause the remaining cities in Elendel Basin would rebel against her for doing something so heinous, and the Malwish would invade in the moment of weakness, with all this being just as society ending as Autonomy’s invasion. Given that Telsin didn’t counter this, I used this to argue she’s more motivated by the recognition and subsequent ascension to godhood that would result from that plan as it would impress Autonomy, and doesn't care at all about what she’ll do to the Basin. While that does seem to be hw Telsin is portrayed, she didn’t answer Wax not because he had a gotcha about what her plan would do, but because he hadn’t fully figured out her plan during that conversation and she wasn’t going to give it away. Wax later realizes that Telsin intends to frame the Elendel government as having made the nuke themselves and accidentally blown themselves up, with the Set taking control and “recovering” that technology, preventing a Malwish invasion via nuclear deterrence. While this reveal doesn’t inherently redeem Telsin, since Telsin is trying to impress Autonomy by proving she can rule the Basin, not destroy the Basin, and Telsin is still killing millions, heinous enough for her resource tier, there is the issue that this would stop Autonomy’s invasion. This is an issue because even if Telsin is acting out of pragmatism, this would mitigate how heinous she is, causing her to flunk HS. Also going to mention a few more things that I didn’t mention in the EP because of how destructive I thought Telsin’s plan seemed to cover them, and the redeeming features section was a little long. Autonomy explicitly says that Telsin’s plan has delayed the invasion by several years, and that there was an evacuation of Elendel, not started by Telsin, before the bomb hit.

Now with all that, I don’t think any of that actually mitigates Telsin, even if her plan has a legitimate argument that it is less destructive than Autonomy’s invasion. For one, the rest of my breakdown of her character still applies. For the delay, the Set was planning to take over the Basin anyway, but their plans initially had a timetable of centuries until Autonomy decided the issue needed to be solved right now. Furthermore the Set as a whole is characterized as a pack of power hungry, morally grandstanding, NSWIEs, with Telsin being amongst the foremost of them. Heck we see Edwarn’s, who Telsin personally recruited, initial reaction to Autonomy deciding to scourge Scadrial, and…

Autonomy!Faceless Immortal: Our accelerated pace will no longer require the Set to have its full hierarchy

Edwarn:But you need us! To rule, to manage civilization on-

Immortal: No longer. Recent advances have made civilization here too dangerous. Allowing it to continue risks further advances we cannot control, and so we have decided to remove life on this sphere instead. Thank you for your service. You will be allowed to serve in another Realm.

Edwarn: But- [Gets blown to oblivion]

So this isn’t Telsin, and he didn’t get to finish, but again Telsin was the one who recruited him into the Set’s ideology, and he was not indicated to be different from that ideology, while “But you need us” being the response I think makes the attitude pretty clear. Also serving in another realm is via some shenanigans that preserve him in the afterlife, and Edwarn clearly did not want that deal, and Telsin even says that if the Basin goes she goes, indicating she would not be offered a similar deal. Basically the invasions shifts Telsin and the Set’s planning from “carefully set up the pieces and make moves” to “go big or go home”, with the delays just being so they can get time to do want they have always wanted to do, not to give Scadrial more time to live, with no good intentions involved. And as for the evacuation, Telsin didn’t start it, Wax did, and it seems likely she actually intended to nuke the city with everyone in it, given there’s a Set mole in the Elendel council that tries to steer the debate away from evacuation and prevent the evacuation. Also it’s made clear that only a portion of the city could be evacuated in time, and the bodycount will still be cataclysmic.

Now there is still the issue of pragmatism mitigating the destruction of Elendel, since Autonomy’s invasion is definitely worse, but it’s not really framed as a better option by the narrative, only Telsin does, and she’s not a reliable source. It's treated as unacceptably bad. Furthermore Autonomy’s conditions to stop her invasion are open-ended

Wax: And what must we do, to get you to leave us the hell alone?

Autonomy: Prove you deserve it.

This is relevant as for one, Wax’s efforts to stop Telsin impress Autonomy enough to get her to not attack Scadrial (for a time), and given that Telsin knows that Autonomy respects Wax she could have guessed something like that, but only ever is concerned with beating Wax. Additionally, and this is what I think really does it, the Set is not a monolith and there was another plan to convince Autonomy, and one that was going on since the first book, albeit without the specific motivation to impress Autonomy. This one involves setting up a breeding program to create metalborns, or using Hemalurgy to create metalborns, and that gaining metalborns would be an incentive for Autonomy to spare Scadrial. This plan is much less heinous than Telsin’s, and while it does not work, its because they can’t get the processes working in time…with it being indicated that Telsin’s plan took resources away from this one that could have made it work…and there is no mention of Autonomy being impressed by anyone involved enough to make them a god.

So there's that, and I also must mention that Telsin’s final rant I quoted in my EP literally has her say “admit that I am right” before bringing up childhood grudges as a motivation.

Overall, a lot of strings attached but it still comes down to her killing millions for her own ambitions.

A couple other things that are a bit ambiguous and that I want to bring up.

So in my EP I mentioned that she didn’t indicate care for her parents, but I want to actually quote what she says about that since there’s not a definitive subversion.

Telsin: Did Harmony tell you what happened to our parents?

Wax: It was…an accident

Telsin: It was agents of Harmony, trying to get to ‘’me’’. Did Harmony ever admit that to you? No, I expect not, based on your expression.

Wax: [Internal Monologue] Don’t let her play you, Wax. Get information.

Also

Wax: Do you remember back in the Village, when you wanted your own room?

Telsin: Father always said it was appropriate for us, because of our lineage, we shouldn’t have to share.

So, it’s not clear if that story about their parent’s death is true, since Telsin is trying to manipulate Wax in this moment, and it’s not followed up on. Furthermore, if she’s using her parents' deaths as a tool for manipulation, that doesn’t indicate the most care. Also, Wax, in a much earlier scene, thinks that family is just another tool for Telsin, which is not explicitly contradicted. And that second comment only seems to indicate care for lineage, and is also said, in that same scene as the other one, to only care about lineage and the privilege it grants. So I don’t think this is a disqualifier.

One last thing, relating to whether Telsin believes in Autonomy’s ideology, which could be mitigating.

Autonomy: I do not think your sister understands the nature of true Autonomy yet. Her attempts have a…fabricated, forced uniqueness to them. Not the raw wounds of true individualism. She will learn. The longer she holds my power, the longer she becomes an avatar of my nature, the more she will see and understand. If she survives.

So my interpretation of this was basically that, as indicated by Telsin’s attempts at uniqueness being fabricated, she was just aping Autonomy’s ideology for a shot at godhood, especially since Telsin has a bit where she impartially ruminates about Autonomy’s nature. And also, given that Shards, which is what Autonomy’s power is, are well established to warp the minds of those exposed to them, I thought that that was what was going to happen to Telsin, and therefore wouldn’t be mitigating like a Heel–Face Brainwashing isn’t. But the “see and understand” gives me pause. Also Autonomy makes it clear this only happens if Telsin survives, and she doesn’t.

Speaking of which, the final thing we get on her, being a corpse with a message carved on to her arm, I said was clearly made by Autonomy, and it doesn’t make sense for Telsin to write it, but it’s a bit more mysterious in the context of the text,

...it seemed that Wax and Wayne had left the Set’s organizational structure-and military forces-in shambles. They’d found Telsin dead on top of the Shaw. Written, by her own fingernail, on the strangely grey skin of her arm had been the words: You have proven yourselves. For now. The way her god had left her was eerily reminiscent of how the Ascendant Warrior and the Last Emperor had been discovered at the end of the Catacendre. Strangely peaceful, and…and rusts, Marasi was zoning out.

So that message indicates a bit of Graceful Loser, and that seemed more in character for Autonomy, since it also seemed to reference Autonomy’s earlier “Prove you deserve it”, but given that it’s written with Telsin’s own fingernail, that would require Autonomy to puppet her body, a power that Autonomy has not displayed, though another Shard has, and we don’t know what Autonomy’s powers are. There’s also the “her god left her” bit. If Telsin did write it, that would take effort as she’s dying, which given the grace in defeat it indicates, could be an issue. Though I thought, and still do think, that it doesn’t make sense for Telsin to write it, since the last we saw of her,

Your failure begins, Autonomy said, voice increasingly distant. You are not worthy. The fire inside Telsin died. The power that had for so many months warmed her was leeching away. Her skin began to turn grey. No! she thought. No! The bomb cannot be stopped. If they interfere they will destroy themselves and the city Potentially both cities. Rusts. We…shall see… Telsin gasped and fell to her knees, trying to reassure herself. It was just Wax. He’d been an annoyance since childhood, but he’d never actually interrupted anything she set in motion. Honestly, he probably hadn’t even reached that ship. A jump like that was nearly impossible, and his aim wasn’t that good. Was it?

So, that doesn’t really seem to indicate a Graceful Loser, and there’s no mention of the message. Overall, I think the scene is deliberately ambiguous, and not something clear enough to warrant a cut.

At least that's my thoughts on all of this stuff. I know that this thread relies on trust of the information provided, and so I wanted to lay it all out and see what you all think.

The word "Yggdrasil" on Lucemon X's entry has an extra "l".

Edited by Mr-ex777 on Jan 2nd 2024 at 12:57:34 AM

Hello, this is my first time ever posting on the forums. I have been observing for a while, there a removal I want to propose. I also see the Punisher villains were being discussed and have some concerns there. Is it okay to participate, or is there some process required?

Just state your point here and let other users do the judgement. If your point is valid and enough people agree then they're cut.

First of all welcome! And there's no "process" or anything. You're welcome to give your input on anything being discussed in the thread. So if you've got something to say about the Punisher guys then you're more than welcome to!

EDIT: If you've got concerns about any other candidates listed also then feel free to give your reasoning (although make sure they're not on the Resolved Items list since they're candidates that have been repeatedly discussed.)

Edited by WetFlannels on Jan 1st 2024 at 6:34:08 PM

Oh, Mr. Kennedy, you entertain me. To show my appreciation, I will help you awaken from your world of clichés.

For Digimon, it seems like some media spell it with two "l"s. Anyone got the official English translation?

CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts

Story itself calls him "King Drasil", doesn't use the words "Yggdrasil" or any variants of.

Alright, I'll change it. What about Digimon Chronicle X?

CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts

Umm never mind. Localization is weird. Leave it alone. Thought it was a typo, but the thing itself is really called Yggdsrasill in the Digimon Reference book.

Edited by Mr-ex777 on Jan 2nd 2024 at 9:00:47 PM

By the way. Rereading the chapters. Gallus cleaner (he's called garrus in the manga) is fine. You can take him out of the list.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."

Alrighty then

So is Vecna a consensus cut, for now at least?

What about Tiberiu and Cavella?

CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts

Vecna ​​definitely yes. Just like the Old Monk. Tiberiu also seems to have single-handedly voted for the cuts. Nothing is known about Cavella yet.

Cut the Monk. I don't think he's even bad enough. Good job, The Gray Fox and thanks so much for noticing. Also cut out Vecna ​​(Hmm, at first the Mind Flayer was the main villain, and then it turned out that Vecna ​​was behind everything... but no, after all, the Mind Flayer is behind everything... Hmm, this is complete nonsense) and Tiberiu. Thanks Ravok and Block Idol.

Today or tomorrow I will have another candidate from G which I think deserves discussion. I think everything is fine with Telsin. She's bad enough anyway that any redeeming qualities are either undermined or too ambiguous, especially since the books still end up making her out to be a selfish person who doesn't care about anyone but herself. Great job Malginel! Thanks for choosing to share with us.

Edited by Ghal-Sur on Jan 2nd 2024 at 6:35:15 AM

Im fine keeping cavella BTW.

As for tiberiu. I dunno if we have consenus yet. Very few people have chimed in yet

Edited by miraculous on Jan 2nd 2024 at 6:01:22 AM

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."

Oh, right, Old Monk's also a cut.

CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts

I’ll give Tiberiu a surprised (huh, so we’re losing all the Slavers) and an even more surprised to Vecna. As for Nicky, he still seems like a keeper. To me, that ‘Pet the Dog’ moment comes across as more Faux Affably Evil.

I'll say keep Nicky, cut the slavers

REALITY IS AN ILLUSION, THE UNIVERSE IS A HOLOGRAM, BUY GOLD BYEEEE! | She/Her

On the flipside and since I feel Tiberiu is the iffiest cut I would like to posit that even if he's drawing a parallel towards himself and Frank it could be the rampage he's lauding and then boasting of how much more far reaching his own would be. I'm told the character does love the excuse to go for a killing spree and if it's just the one mention I do think this interpretation should be given an equal presentation, if just for thorough discussion.

I'll grant that it's possible, yet I'm not sure. Like Ravok said, it's strangely specific.

CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts

Cut Vecna

Regarding Tiberiu, it's just this moment was brought up many times before and it was deemed to not matter, since it leans way too much into "personal pride" or Blood Knight stuff rather than Tiberiu being sentimental or emotional or indicating in clear cut way that he cared about his wife as a person and not someting he could have used as an excuse to go on another rampage. The fact that he added "This will be an interesting man to kill" afterwards, also lean on Tiberiu not really being presented as actually expressing love for his wife or being capable of love at all.

So i lean toward keep, although i wouldn't exactly fight hard if he was decided to be cut

Edited by VeryVileVillian on Jan 2nd 2024 at 7:11:20 PM

Regardless of what's decided, I'm glad to have a thorough discussion.

CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts

Earnestly—and I'm the kinda guy who loathes being flakey himself—I am kinda leaning keep now. All in all it's the one and only one scene that even hints at something redeeming and if we're gonna call Nicky sparring the old dude a whim, which I agree with; I think likewise Tiberu having a line that could maybe be taken as seeing Frank's grief or maybe just praising his reaction to something that was his being harmed to go on a massacre, it makes more sense to lean to the latter given the overall character. Good points on both but I think it comes to be a situation where we've gotta look at the villain as a whole and determine what makes most sense and in both cases, personally I feel that's to keep them here.

As an aside, I find this writeup a bit clunky and I'd like to propose an update.

• D-Tox (also known as Eye See You): The mysterious Serial Killer kills police officers by first incapacitating them with a power drill in the eye, then shooting them in the head, before leaving the corpse hanged on the ceiling. He does this in order to provoke the FBI agent Jake Malloy, who some years ago pursued him for a series of murders of prostitutes (a thing he calls "removing diseased filth"). He kills Malloy's girlfriend Mary in the same way he kills the cops in order to break him even more. Believed to be dead, the killer fakes his own death. Still eager to ruin Malloy's life, he follows him to a rehab center, kills one of the patients, Frank Slater, and takes his identity. After leaving no one the chance to escape the clinic he starts viciously killing most of the patients this time using melee weapons like a knife or an axe, killing one of them via electroshock. In his last breath he sadistically taunts Malloy that Mary called out his name one moment before "he drained the life out of her."

The current:

Suggesting:

• D-Tox (also known as Eye See You): The unnamed Serial Killer viciously murders cops by using a power drill to take out an eye before shooting them dead and hanging their corpses to be found. The killer does so as a means of revenge against FBI agent Jake Mallory, who pursed him for his serial murder of prostitutes, something the killer referred to as "removing diseased filth". To hurt Mallory further, he kidnaps and gruesomely kills his girlfriend just as he had done to the many police officers before. Faking his own death, the killer breaks into a rehab center, killing a patient to take his identity and begins picking off the other patients. When finally caught and mortally wounded by Mallory, he even uses his last breath to mock his foe, saying his girlfriend called out his name before he "drained the life out of her."

Thoughts?

Love the rewrite

On the subject of Nicky, my problems way before this moment was brought up is Nicky (when he was a little kid) being groomed and raped by his aunt, who, from my memories, was the one, who pushed him toward the life of crime and the one who told him to kill his family.

I just remember that it was brought up before that villains getting raped might create sympathies from the audience, which is why they were ruled out, don't know if it's this way now or not.

Edited by VeryVileVillian on Jan 2nd 2024 at 7:09:49 PM

Hoenstly keep here. The fact he ends the convo with the interesting man to kill part he tells to his son. Does lean more that this is more of a Blood Knight mentality. And the fact it's the only time and the work goes out it's way to show he's a sociopath.

Edited by miraculous on Jan 2nd 2024 at 8:10:30 AM

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."

Good thought Vile and I sure as shit ain't gonna argue for the classiness of that arc lol but I recall that being discussed and Nicky was deemed a keep on the basis that even going as far back as his eight-year-old self's family massacre bit, he's smiling at the whole affair and seems to be indicated to be a cognizant and willing participant.

I think I will switch keep for Tiberiu.

For Nicky, more information about how his relathioship with his aunt is portayed would be useful because since it does sound messed up.

Edited by EmperorGeode on Jan 2nd 2024 at 8:22:23 AM