Old Complete Monster cleanup thread
Welcome to the new Complete Monster (CM) cleanup thread! This thread is where we clean up or cut already-existing entries.
If you're looking to add new entries, please see the approval thread.
IMPORTANT: Before you begin any discussions on this thread, please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List. Here, you'll find explanations of the criteria for the trope as well as our rules/procedures for approving and cutting candidates.
What goes through this thread?
- Cut requests. If you believe a CM has been approved and they do not count, this thread is where you propose their removal. To know how to go about this, please see the FAQ folder on the Administrivia page, where the process is explained in detail.
- If we ever need to consider cutting multiple examples without individually reviewing them (e.g. if we discover widespread plagiarism with a particular troper's CMs), the initial discussion will be on this thread and we'll then escalate to the mod team (as described here) to get a formal consensus if we decide to recommend a mass cut.
- If an entry was put on the wrong subpage/YMMV page, you may propose where they should be moved to.
- Full rewrites of existing entries, including expansions, trims, and ground-up rewrites. If your rewrite is approved by the thread, feel free to add it to the drafts page so that other users can check grammar and the like before it is included with the rest of the weekly swaps.
- If an entry on a work's YMMV page doesn't match the entry on the media subpage, you can bring it here to discuss which entry works better.
What does not go through this thread?
- New candidate proposals - as stated before, those are done on this thread.
- Unapproved wicks - if a Troper encounters either of these kinds of wicks, they can be cut with no approval.
- Any CM link on a non-YMMV page - as a YMMV trope, it should not be linked on those pages regardless of any cleanup effort. The only exception is if the wick is being used within the definition of another trope.
- If an CM link on a YMMV page refers to an unapproved character. If it refers to an approved character on any such page, the wick can stay. On the other hand, if the unapproved character being linked to sounds like they might have promise (and you don't feel like checking it out for yourself), feel free to mention it on the approval thread - someone may already know why they don't count, or it could invite a brand new discussion!
- Proposals for images, quotes, and videos of already-approved CMs - quotes and images are proposed on the approval thread, while videos can be uploaded normally as they are screened for approval by the moderation.
- Crosswicking examples to YMMV pages - if an example has already been approved and added to the main page, you do not require any special permission to add the example to a work's YMMV page (assuming the work has a page already). If a YMMV page doesn't exist yet, then you can make it yourself, but either way, feel free to just add the example without asking.
- Small changes to existing entries - these can simply be done on a Troper's own prerogative with no approval.
- Spelling and grammar fixes.
- Pothole changes.
- Minor rewordings.
- Spoiler tags.
While these changes do not require any kind of approval, it is requested that should you make any of these changes, you do one of the following:
- Make the same changes on the relevant Sandbox page, then add the Sandbox to the list at the bottom of the drafts page. This will add the Sandbox to the weekly swaps and ensure that the edits end up on the relevant locked page. If the Sandbox is already listed, then once you make the edits, your job is already done!
- If you don't know how the Sandboxes work or simply don't have the time to find it, then you can simply post on the thread about the changes you made. Someone else can then make the edit on the relevant Sandbox and add it to the weekly swaps.
- Alternatively, you can simply request that the change be made directly to the locked page on the Locked Pages thread. Members of this thread keep track of that one, so we will ensure that the changes are made in the Sandbox so that it doesn't get deleted during the next swap.
Again, these changes don't require any approval, but we prefer to keep the entries on the YMMV pages and the locked pages the same in order to avoid any miscommunication or errors between entries, so if you do make the change, we would greatly appreciate it if you could ensure the change is made on the locked page as well.
As a final note, we do not care what other sites have to say regarding whether or not a character counts. We have our own criteria and they have theirs for their CM equivalents; while they are similar, they are not exactly the same and should not be treated as such. Another site removing a character from their equivalent should not be a reason why a cut is proposed here, and if this is the case, it will likely lead to mod intervention.
Other than this, once again, welcome to the cleanup thread, and we look forward to your contributions!
Edited by Mrph1 on Jan 14th 2024 at 11:30:03 AM
I guess I'm fine with that. I just find it hard to understand why an author who wants to portray a villain as purely evil would have numerous characters stating that they aren't.
Edited by Javertshark13 on Aug 31st 2023 at 6:53:56 AM
I mean characters can be wrong about stuff
REALITY IS AN ILLUSION, THE UNIVERSE IS A HOLOGRAM, BUY GOLD BYEEEE! | She/Her
Also the divergence in understanding we're having is probably coming from the fact the work's quite thorough in what constitutes this exact trope and while characters may speculate as to whether there's a sliver of good in Johan or indeed recognize he could turn down a new path, the fact of the matter is he takes zero steps to change the road he's going on and gives absolutely no evidence towards any tender feelings towards anyone.
Yeah, Johan is definitely not going anywhere. And while Nina clearly cares about him, that doesn't mean Johan cares about her.
Btw while we're doing the Junji Ito stuff there's an existing entry I'd like to trim.
- "The Back Alley": Shinobu Uchiyama is a 14-year-old sociopath and the one responsible for a series of murders that happened in the alley behind her mother's boarding house. Ever since she was a little girl, she was violently territorial towards the alley and murdered three little children who decided to play there one day. After her father fenced it off, Shinobu grew fond of using the alley as a killing ground, and as she grew older, she lured two classmates that she hated over and killed them, and eventually did the same to her own father before leaving taunting, vulgar graffiti celebrating their murders. The souls of her victims haunt the alley as vengeful ghosts who are permanently trapped due to not being able to climb out and attack Shinobu, who simply relishes in their suffering. When Ishida investigates the alley and tries to escape in order to call the police, Shinobu stabs him in the hand and causes him to fall, then smugly gloats about her crimes to a dying Ishida. Despite claiming that she has nothing against him, she giggles with glee once he succumbs to his wounds and casually tries to hide his body.
I think I can keep the crimes with about 1/3 of the space:
- "The Back Alley": Shinobu Uchiyama is a 14-year-old sociopath and the one responsible for a series of murders that happened in the alley behind her mother's boarding house. Violently territorial of "her" alley, as a child, Shinobu murdered a group of children for playing there and began using it as a killing ground when her father fenced it off. Killing her classmates and even own father, Shinobu began taunting the trapped ghosts of the victims and when hero Ishida investigates, fatally stabs him, giggling as he dies.
Thoughts?
Edited by 43110 on Aug 31st 2023 at 9:52:04 AM
To here: The time is long overdue for Johan to get there. Go for it.
Bye
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Shinobu rewrite and putting Johan under Resolved
Not the Eye
Found this on Zeta Gundam YMMV page under Complete Monster.
- Kamille's father doesn't stay behind as he doesn't care at all about his late wife and goes ridiculously violent with Kamille. It takes none other than Char to kill the guy because things were getting worse.
Having watched episodes in which he is, guy is a prick, but Light years behind standard.
Oh, easy cut.
Not the Eye
Something I stumbled across.
Few months back Cody Hjuger was voted cut, however he is still on both CM page of Tales series and YMMV page for Tales of Crestoria.
Gentle Laborer
Kamille's dad is nowhere near this trope, but speaking of Zeta Gundam—apparently, the Psycho for Hire of the franchise, Yazan himself, received some positive qualities in the recently-finished Johnny Ridden manga. I'll be reading his chapters when translations become available, just to be sure.
Anyway, I've been wanting to discuss another potential cut for quite a while, specifically one from Sword Art Online.
- Progressive: In this retelling of the Aincrad arc, Morte is one of the thousands of players trapped in SAO and the first murderer inside it. Superficially jolly, Morte convinces a desperate player to scam other players and steal their weapons before trying to get him executed for said crime. Reaching the next floor, Morte enjoys killing a likely sapient NPC and manipulates the two biggest guilds of players into fighting each other while he challenges Kirito to a seemingly non-lethal duel, trying to kill him with a Finishing Move and make it look like an accident as he had done to others in the past. The first murderer inside SAO—managing to get people killed despite the heavy restrictions at the time—Morte become the predecessor to the Laughing Coffin guild members.
Morte tries to get some people killed and gets to destroy a "likely sapient" NPC, I guess that's it. I know Progressive is a soft reboot but still... Morte does a pretty horrible job at Player Killing and he exists in the same game as PoH and Laughing Coffin, who indulge in mass murder on a constant basis. The other PKs are not only involved in the same activities but also conspire alongside Morte, so he's not exactly an independent baddie either.
Edited by TheMadCr0w on Sep 1st 2023 at 11:11:42 AM
Tbh I lean cut. IIRC the argument was the game's restrictions at the time giving him an edge for how much he could accomplish but I think he's left in the dust by what Laughing Coffin becomes.
Goku Black
Yeah cut. All three members who succeed him are worse than what he accomplishes.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Not the Eye
Cut Morte
Classy, Refined, Unstable
Cut Morte
Having just rewatched the show and providing a gigantic EP for the MB Thread. Would anyone oppose me giving a rewrite for Silas? Here's his current for reference:
- Colonel Leland "Silas" Bishop is leader of MECH, a terrorist group researching Cybertronian technology. His crimes include capturing Breakdown, torturing him, trying to have him vivisected, and removing one of his eyes; and allying MECH with Airachnid to get his hands on another Cybertronian, Arcee, and was perfectly willing to let Airachnid kill Jack Darby, a sixteen-year old teenager, and his mother to do it; he even states a few human lives are worth it for Arcee's tech. After his men upload him into the now-dead Breakdown's empty shell, saving his life in the process, he thanks them for that and their years of loyal service by thanking them personally and then slaughtering them. He then, taking the name CYLAS—"C Ybernetic Lifeform Augmented by Symbiosis"—betrays the human race to Megatron. Seeing himself as a superior being, he razes a military base just to get Megatron's attention, then attempts to blow up everybody inside Raf's house.
Apart from it having quite lengthy sentences with multiple pauses, it also misses out his Nemesis Prime schtick of assaulting a military base to frame the Autobots.
Oh, Mr. Kennedy, you entertain me. To show my appreciation, I will help you awaken from your world of clichés.
Cut Morte.
I am actually going to challenge one of my DC Comics literature proposals, Dr. Aaron Nelson from Harley Quinn: Reckoning. So I listened to the sequel, Harley Quinn Ravenous on Audible and I think I might have confused text with subtext. The sequel calls Nelson a predator and says he was assaulting girls, but that might have him just spraying girls with fear gas. In my defense, the subtext was rather heavy, with the book calling him a serial assaulter and predator who attacks young co-eds, uses fear gas so they cannot testify against him, and kept locks of hair from all his victims, but I might have made a mental leap and I realize the book didn't use the term sexual assault or rapist with Nelson. Its more heavily implied rather than outright stated. These books are pretty dark, Harley's abusive father locked her in the bathroom for days on end, giving her only a bo of pop tarts to survive on, Harley almost does get sexually assaulted at a party and her friend got sexually assaulted in the past, but I wonder with Nelson if its too subtext rather than text. That's my mistake.
So that leaves Nelson spraying girls with fear gas, killing one and causing permanent psychological damage to the rest. Still pretty bad, but Scarecrow appears in the sequel, he is experimenting on the inmates of Arkham and patients at Arkham Acres, a similar facility that deals with strictly non-violent mentally ill people, and gives one of the Arkham Acres and Scarecrow gives the of the Arkham Acres patient a heart attack that almost kills her. Scarecrow also gave the fear gas to Dr. Nelson in exchange for blood samples for his victims. The sequel also sets up for the next book, with Scarecrow making mind control chips for some guy named Anton who is kidnapping young women across Gotham City. I wonder if Nelson no longer meets the heinous standard.
Edited by Overlord on Sep 1st 2023 at 7:15:23 AM
I've read the first but not the second Harley book, so I can't comment on the sequel guys, but while the books never outright say Nelson raped them it's a case where the subtext is so incredibly obvious I'm not sure why they bothered not saying it.
Like Harley gets off the hook as a murder suspect because they've ran some tests and it's heavily implied they found Nelson's sperm in the girl.
Edited by Agentofchaos on Sep 1st 2023 at 10:52:32 AM
REALITY IS AN ILLUSION, THE UNIVERSE IS A HOLOGRAM, BUY GOLD BYEEEE! | She/Her
Just to be 110% clear, making minor grammar adjustments is OK, right?
With Morte, I think his story is still ongoing and it looks like he will show up again.
From my understanding, Morte's gimmick is sowing discord and distrust among the players, and tricking them into killing one another out of fear/anger. There does seem to be a pattern of it being a repeat crime outside of the onscreen stuff. While unique, not sure if that alone is horrible enough to breach the heinous standard.
Looking at the EP, the argument was that he stood out by being the very first Player Killer shown and at that point he was operating in a vaccuum. Seems like the Progressive timeline has yet to reach the super heinous stuff that PoH and his lieutenants get up to later.
If we decide that's still not sufficient enough for him to stand out, I got no issue with a cut for now.
Edited by Snowy66 on Nov 22nd 2023 at 1:47:07 AM
Yeah, keep Dr. Nelson. The term "assaulted" on its own can be used as a euphemism for rape/sexual battery, and that fully appears to be the case here.
Goku Black
Keep Nelson
By the way we missed one of FlowerPicking's examples.
So, just to be clear, has Koba been officially cut from being CM yet?
I think so...
If we end up deciding not to go this route then we can just ignore this, but how's it look?
Edited by STARCRUSHER99 on Aug 31st 2023 at 6:50:30 AM