Complete Monster Cleanup

Wet: I suppose the last in bold can be diced.

Abstain on Jenny.

I personally felt that what Colin lacked in edge was made up for in numbers at the time.

Edited by SkyCat32 on Dec 12th 2022 at 8:21:12 AM

Old

• "All Fall Down" & "Fallen": Professor Robert "Bob" Starling, when denied tenure on account of his student and mistress Melissa Walls's faked thesis, retaliates by killing Miami-Dade University personnel he sees as having interfered with his career. Shooting one victim with a remote-controlled rifle, drowning another under a pool cover, and attempting to burn the third one alive with a compound of potassium and water as a result of the victim using fake cologne, Bob sends the Miami-Dade Police Department mocking letters anticipating that they arrive too late. In order to suppress evidence against him, Bob manipulates Melissa into releasing halon gas in an attempt to suffocate dozens of CSI lab workers, successfully having CSI Jesse Cardoza killed, subsequently sending Lt. Horatio Caine on a wild goose chase leading to a fake bomb at a local beach.

Tweak

• "All Fall Down" & "Fallen": Professor Robert "Bob" Starling, when denied tenure on account of his student and mistress Melissa Walls's faked thesis, retaliates by killing Miami-Dade University personnel he sees as having interfered with his career. Shooting one victim with a remote-controlled rifle, drowning another under a pool cover, and attempting to burn the third one alive with a compound of potassium and water as a result of the victim using fake cologne. In order to suppress evidence against him, Bob manipulates Melissa into releasing halon gas in an attempt to suffocate dozens of CSI lab workers, successfully having CSI Jesse Cardoza killed.

Looking at the others for CSI this one just seems like a slightly less worse version of the rapist couple.

• Gordon Daimler, aka Adam van der Welk, is a limo driver who targets wealthy couples. He kills the husbands first and then, after 48 hours of "fun and games", kills the wives. Having already done this with 3 previous couples, his latest target was the former Las Vegas Chief of Detectives; he then took the wife and the Chief's young daughter to Miami, where he kills the wife; the daughter manages to escape, despite Daimler trying to shoot her. He rapes and kills a fifth woman, and unsuccessfully attempts to kill her husband.

The others for CSI Crime Scene Investigation though I think are good to stay.

• Mandy and Cameron Klinefeld - Serial rapists and torturors with a fondness of Forced to Watch.
• Leon Sneller - Wannabe Josef Mengele with horrific torture based on the concentration camps and has double digits under his belt.
• Gina Sinclair - Serial Rapist of children and abused a victim for 3 years
• Laura Gabriel - Funds cartels and has a decent enough death count.
• Tom Cooley - Serial Rapist and murderer by strangulation
• Trent Reager - Used a hallucigeon spray on people multiple times which made people go crazy causing a nasty batch of Cruel and Unusual Death because he likes watching people.

I say Trent is the minimum and I'll vouch for him seeing the episode because of how unique he was.

Thoughts?

Edited by WetFlannels on Dec 12th 2022 at 1:27:41 PM

I wouldn’t mind if Jenny gets cut since there are other murderers with higher body counts and/or brutal methods

If think Clark can stay since his rape count is quite high.

Hmm for Gordon I think that he can still stay since what he does to those couples sounds unique and horrifying, even if he doesn’t have the highest body count

Also Trent can also stay since he’s using hallucinogens to trick people into brutal killing each other is still quite unique

Also after thinking it over perhaps Jimmy Burris can get cut as with compared to these other baddies including members of his own organization he doesn’t seems heinous enough though he comes quite close to it

Edited by G-Editor on Dec 12th 2022 at 3:32:34 AM

On the subject of pages, I think needs a reevaluation. The Whoniverse page has been bugging me for a long time. I am not the only one that has brought up concerns with this but as far as I can tell none of the concerns have ever gone anywhere. The series has a super large number of extremely heinous villains with tons of genocidal dicks approved. Ones like Salamander and Thawn especially stick out as maybe not cutting it.

There are probably more large pages that could use that but that is one that comes to mind.

Edited by Ordeaux26 on Dec 12th 2022 at 5:38:18 AM

How are we tackling the standard of CSI? Each show it's own standard? Because these two seem to be lacklustre.

• "Endgame" & "Showdown": Emil Dornvald is a mercenary working for an African dictator. The missing person of the week is in love with a rebel opposing said dictator and knew where he and his friends were holed up. Dornvald cold-bloodedly murders the pregnant teenager she's been mentoring and is very fond of, sends her a picture on the girl's phone, and offers to stop killing her loved ones if she just tells him where the men are.
• Roger Mulvaney ruthlessly beats his wife and two daughters and uses his position as a police officer to get away with the abuse. Once his wife decides to leave him for another man he resolves that if he can't have them, nobody could. He kidnaps the three of them and makes his wife watch as he throws one of the girls—only four years old—from a tall bridge.

I think it’ best to take every show with its own standard.

Good with Clark and Jimmi staying, unsore on jenny.

Edited by EmperorGeode on Dec 12th 2022 at 5:38:37 AM

Yeah those entries don’t really say much. I’m at least inclined to cut Roger since he just seems to be a Domestic Abuser with no killcount

Edited by G-Editor on Dec 12th 2022 at 3:38:29 AM

@Ordeux

I don't think a look through is needed. The standard has been discussed at length before. If you have any specific characters you wanted to bring up.

It has, I have looked at old discussion and all I could find was people being skeptical of the standard but it never going anywhere.

Daimler I'm actually okay with because the "fun and games" sounds like prolonged torment, which is part of his MO. My issue with Colin is he's got the most rapes but he lacks the torture and murder of the others listed, with Steward Otis coming across to me as far worse despite being a few behind in quantity when he's murdering the (children) he molests and uses one in a Snuff Film.

Unsure on Roger and Emil, but I know they were discussed before, having contested Roger once at least.

I can honestly see both sides at this point, but am reticent to dismiss the bodycount altogether.

We aren't discussing Otis, but Colin.

Edited by SkyCat32 on Dec 12th 2022 at 8:45:22 AM

On the subject of CSI, cut Jenny for sure, Colin I will need to think about.

I don't understand at all how Roger is up, like I am not even sure he passes the baseline as all he has is the abuse of his daughters, with nothing telling me how bad the abuse is, and killing one of them. That is very little for a crime series.

Fixed that

Edited by Ordeaux26 on Dec 12th 2022 at 5:47:22 AM

Also...

• "Lost Boy": A conman is preying on families who had adopted children from Africa; he'd claim to be the kid's birth father and guilt the parents into surrendering the kids to him, whereupon he'd take them and sell them on the black market. He also manipulated a Sudanese war orphan into helping him by claiming that he was only stealing the children to get them back to their birth parents, the young man having lost his own mother to militants. When the orphan finds out he's been had, he brutally stabs the guy to death and the FBI quite understandably decide to look the other way.

This writeup seems to be one of the old ones so a replacement one?

• "Lost Boy": A unnamed conman reaches new heights of depravity to satisfy his greed. Targeting families who had adopted children from Africa, he manipulates the parents into giving the kids to him. With the kids in hand, the conman would happily have them sold onto the black market, uncaring about what horrific crimes would happen to the children so long as it lined his pockets.

Thoughts?

Oh and I started an Image Pickin for Disney. If anyone wants to give some feedback.

The argument to keep Mulvaney was on the depth of his domestic abuse and the young age of his victim, just presenting this as people were interested in where the argument was coming from.

I know that Roger's come up before and I think the thing was that Cold Case has a drastically lower standard than the other show's in the Verse. I don't know much about that show but I know this has been discussed before

And yeah, looking Colin over, I'm really reticent about him, even with his body count. He's a rapist who steals things and has some mild kick the dog stuff. Other serial rapists are pedophiles, torturers, murderers, or all of them at once:

• The married couple make the spouse of the victim watch
• Tom Cooley rapes and kills like ten people
• Stewart Otis rapes and murders children between five and eight
• Edwin Chambers also targets children
• Hell, even in Colin's series, Carolyn manipulates women into a prostitution ring.

I'm sorry, but even with sixteen victims, I don't see how Colin can stand out within the rapist niche when it's so crowded like this.

I'm not disagreeing, I was just pointing out that I know this has come up before, so there was a reason why he stayed up

Edited by STARCRUSHER99 on Dec 12th 2022 at 8:55:14 AM

I mean sure I can see it has a lower standard but that doesn't really help much when the character doesn't even pass the baseline for a crime show.

I think I'd be leaning keep for Colin if he had much more rapes under his belt (can't believe I typed that) but for now I'm leaning cut.

Also opinions on my conman rewrite guys?

Rewrite is good and I'm getting more skeptical on Dornvald as searching him just brings up people asking if he's really heinous enough and then the discussion not going anywhere...

Also, does anyone have any more votes on Jimmy? I should mention that it seems G is leaning cut now so take that as you wish.

I kind of want to hear your opinion 43 if you don't mind, since you brought up this idea.

Rewrite is fine.

Edited by Ordeaux26 on Dec 12th 2022 at 6:03:56 AM

Jimmy I can go either way on personally. The fact that he's supplying the victims plus raping them himself, even if we only have one "confirmed" victim, is a pretty clear pattern that makes me reluctant to just call him a cog in the machine. I think I'll officially lodge a slight "keep" but I have no stake in the game.

Yeah judging by the writeup, Emil has one kill and threatens some innocents as a deal. I say cut.

Okay yeah I am saying Cut to Emil, and Cut Colin while we are at it.

If we are gonna actually keep Roger can I get some info on what he does to his daughters, since the writeup barely says anything beyond "beatings", and if his abuse is not bad enough I can't see him even passing the baseline.

Edited by Ordeaux26 on Dec 12th 2022 at 6:07:38 AM

I'm going to concur with Star on Jimmy, this sounds like it goes beyond vague implication as a functioning member and working pimp of a tracking organization who's got the added nastiness of "testing the merchandise" himself.

Seconding. If he stays that's going to need to be rewritten imo.

Edited by 43110 on Dec 12th 2022 at 9:08:50 AM

I'm still leaning keep Jimmy

As for Roger, had a google to see if there was any wikis but couldn't find anything.

Okay, I know we're no longer allowed to use jargon like Criminal Minds Syndrome (when a character who would be bad enough to qualify in most series is disqualified because they're not bad enough by the standards of the series they're in), but holy hell, I cannot believe we are actually considering cutting a Serial Rapist with 16 victims because he 'just' makes his victims clean up the crime scenes.