Old Complete Monster cleanup thread
Welcome to the new Complete Monster (CM) cleanup thread! This thread is where we clean up or cut already-existing entries.
If you're looking to add new entries, please see the approval thread.
IMPORTANT: Before you begin any discussions on this thread, please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List. Here, you'll find explanations of the criteria for the trope as well as our rules/procedures for approving and cutting candidates.
What goes through this thread?
- Cut requests. If you believe a CM has been approved and they do not count, this thread is where you propose their removal. To know how to go about this, please see the FAQ folder on the Administrivia page, where the process is explained in detail.
- If we ever need to consider cutting multiple examples without individually reviewing them (e.g. if we discover widespread plagiarism with a particular troper's CMs), the initial discussion will be on this thread and we'll then escalate to the mod team (as described here) to get a formal consensus if we decide to recommend a mass cut.
- If an entry was put on the wrong subpage/YMMV page, you may propose where they should be moved to.
- Full rewrites of existing entries, including expansions, trims, and ground-up rewrites. If your rewrite is approved by the thread, feel free to add it to the drafts page so that other users can check grammar and the like before it is included with the rest of the weekly swaps.
- If an entry on a work's YMMV page doesn't match the entry on the media subpage, you can bring it here to discuss which entry works better.
What does not go through this thread?
- New candidate proposals - as stated before, those are done on this thread.
- Unapproved wicks - if a Troper encounters either of these kinds of wicks, they can be cut with no approval.
- Any CM link on a non-YMMV page - as a YMMV trope, it should not be linked on those pages regardless of any cleanup effort. The only exception is if the wick is being used within the definition of another trope.
- If an CM link on a YMMV page refers to an unapproved character. If it refers to an approved character on any such page, the wick can stay. On the other hand, if the unapproved character being linked to sounds like they might have promise (and you don't feel like checking it out for yourself), feel free to mention it on the approval thread - someone may already know why they don't count, or it could invite a brand new discussion!
- Proposals for images, quotes, and videos of already-approved CMs - quotes and images are proposed on the approval thread, while videos can be uploaded normally as they are screened for approval by the moderation.
- Crosswicking examples to YMMV pages - if an example has already been approved and added to the main page, you do not require any special permission to add the example to a work's YMMV page (assuming the work has a page already). If a YMMV page doesn't exist yet, then you can make it yourself, but either way, feel free to just add the example without asking.
- Small changes to existing entries - these can simply be done on a Troper's own prerogative with no approval.
- Spelling and grammar fixes.
- Pothole changes.
- Minor rewordings.
- Spoiler tags.
While these changes do not require any kind of approval, it is requested that should you make any of these changes, you do one of the following:
- Make the same changes on the relevant Sandbox page, then add the Sandbox to the list at the bottom of the drafts page. This will add the Sandbox to the weekly swaps and ensure that the edits end up on the relevant locked page. If the Sandbox is already listed, then once you make the edits, your job is already done!
- If you don't know how the Sandboxes work or simply don't have the time to find it, then you can simply post on the thread about the changes you made. Someone else can then make the edit on the relevant Sandbox and add it to the weekly swaps.
- Alternatively, you can simply request that the change be made directly to the locked page on the Locked Pages thread. Members of this thread keep track of that one, so we will ensure that the changes are made in the Sandbox so that it doesn't get deleted during the next swap.
Again, these changes don't require any approval, but we prefer to keep the entries on the YMMV pages and the locked pages the same in order to avoid any miscommunication or errors between entries, so if you do make the change, we would greatly appreciate it if you could ensure the change is made on the locked page as well.
As a final note, we do not care what other sites have to say regarding whether or not a character counts. We have our own criteria and they have theirs for their CM equivalents; while they are similar, they are not exactly the same and should not be treated as such. Another site removing a character from their equivalent should not be a reason why a cut is proposed here, and if this is the case, it will likely lead to mod intervention.
Other than this, once again, welcome to the cleanup thread, and we look forward to your contributions!
Edited by Mrph1 on Jan 14th 2024 at 11:30:03 AM
Yes, they're good.
Berserk Button: misusing Berserk Button
Ok. Are we gonna have to join the Fire Force and Soul Eater trees?
One of these days, all of you will accept me as your supreme overlord.
Professor Gigachad
I don't see why not.
CM Sandboxes, MB Sandboxes
Goku Black
How about the fire force trio from the other end. The Gorgon sisters I'm not really worried about as they seem fine even stacked to those three. But what about the inverse?
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Professor Gigachad
Wait hold on, nevermind, we can't join the trees, as the Medusa section would create a 4-bullet indentation.
Edited by Ordeaux26 on Jan 27th 2023 at 3:42:41 AM
CM Sandboxes, MB Sandboxes
Goku Black
Uh I heard the fire force manga. Might have more. So just wait in that one.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Berserk Button: misusing Berserk Button
Possible new page incoming?
One of these days, all of you will accept me as your supreme overlord.
Professor Gigachad
What would we call the page though, since there is no page for the shared universe.
CM Sandboxes, MB Sandboxes
Berserk Button: misusing Berserk Button
I say Soul Eater because it came first. But that’s IF we are getting a new page.
One of these days, all of you will accept me as your supreme overlord.
I know this issue was brought up and dismissed when Fire Force ended, but I find it so weird that Rekka Hoshimiya is resurrected, completely forgiven, and allowed to rejoin his old team like nothing happened. The discussion stated he never repented, but a Complete Monster is by definition meant to be hated and reviled by characters in the story.
Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
Berserk Button: misusing Berserk Button
When did that happen? Seems like an easy cut to me.
One of these days, all of you will accept me as your supreme overlord.
Barb / Temporary Kylo
Does he turn good or show any care for his teammates and such?
The First man
It's namely these tropes.
- Back from the Dead: By end of the series, Rekka makes a return when Shirna brings everybody back to life, friend and foe alike.
- Easily Forgiven: Despite the grief he caused others and his passionate madness, his past actions are swept under the rug in the finale; he joins his old company again as if nothing has happened.
Granted, I haven't read the manga. I just remember the discussion and finding it very weird. Similar examples like Mayuri and Orochimaru did at least show redeeming qualities, but on the flip side Frieza joined with the Z Warriors but everyone still hated him.
Edited by LoreDeluxe on Jan 27th 2023 at 4:02:25 AM
Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
Barb / Temporary Kylo
So like....how does this play out? I don't think 'others don't hate him' is a disqualifier. But how does him joining his team again go exaclty?
The First man
I'm kinda leaning cut as dumb as it is. unfortunately, this just happens in Shonen. Freeza is still evil at least and only helped the heroes out of pragmatic villainy.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
I think G and Erazor did the Fire Force keepers FWIW.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Professor Gigachad
Like as odd that is I am kind of leaning the same, we have had cases of CM's teaming up with heroes, but it is made clear they are still completely evil and usually, the heroes will end up hating having to team up with them. The fact they are so willing to just forgive him gives serious doubts on how much the narrative is treating them as completely evil.
CM Sandboxes, MB Sandboxes
That is what I am saying. I am not seeing a problem with this since I am pretty sure many villains do team up with heroes (albeit pragmatic most of the time) but are still evil either way such as Vilgax and of course Frieza. IMO I feel like Rekka's acts in terms of him actually passing the standard or not is something I feel may need discussion or not if you ask me than the ones mentioned. Yet again I have not seen Fire Force yet so I can't say on all that.
Edited by Echidna on Jan 27th 2023 at 7:31:06 AM
I know Princess Mombi from Return to Oz was forgiven, at least by Ozma, but remains a CM.
Edited by lalalei2001 on Jan 27th 2023 at 7:51:24 AM
The Protomen enhanced my life.
Barb / Temporary Kylo
So like, is Rekka still evil at the end or no? If he pulls a Heel–Face Turn or something that will be a clear disqualifier. But if they just let him in despite him showing no remorse or change it....sounds very dumb but not preventing.
The First man
I mean this is on the Complete Monster page itself.
The character's terribleness is played seriously at all times, evoking fear, revulsion and hatred from the other characters in the story.
I understand a Complete Monster can be an example of Even Evil Can Be Loved, but that's usually from one or two people. When your entire team who you betrayed forgives and accepts you back onto the team, even if you show no onscreen remorse, the situation just feels counter to what a Complete Monster is meant to be at its core.
Edited by LoreDeluxe on Jan 27th 2023 at 5:05:47 AM
Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
I don't mean to double post, but I want this request to be separate and more visible.
Can anyone link the manga page where this is made apparent? If Rekka is, say, smiling and hanging out with his team, then I'd 100% vote cut. If it's just an offhand mention by other characters and we don't actually see him interact with his old team, I'll say keep. I'm going off of 3rd party information here and we could use direct detail on how this is played out.
Edit: One more detail I found on the Even Evil Can Be Loved page at the bottom.
Do take note that a Complete Monster is the vilest and worst of all evils, and therefore cannot be loved and do not seek love.
Is this an official stance from the site or can we ignore and delete that?
Edited by LoreDeluxe on Jan 27th 2023 at 5:12:08 AM
Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
Classy, Refined, Unstable
About Even Evil Can Be Loved, that isn't an issue to me because we've got guys like J.Geil up when his mother is literally frothing mad about avenging his death.
Also that add on was only added last year by some random troper it seems.
Edited by WetFlannels on Jan 27th 2023 at 1:16:41 PM
Oh, Mr. Kennedy, you entertain me. To show my appreciation, I will help you awaken from your world of clichés.
I'm unfortunately inclined to agree. Freeza is one who weirdly leapfrogs between it as he keeps betraying the heroes and clearly intends to pursue what he can get away with. The other examples to keep an eye on are Rades from Black Clover whose mass murder attempt is weirdly downplayed (even when he's screaming he's not sorry for a single thing he's done, he's just still tagging along with his team out of a lack of options and nobody takes him seriously). And Caesar Clown who's...still hated, just weirdly turned into a Butt-Monkey played for comedy
Well medusa tries to end the world, il say yes. I think shaula is Okay as well