Vindicated by History cleanup thread

They were discussed, but rather inconclusively. I wrote that entry for BvS because I didn't feel quite safe cutting it (I watered down what it was saying a bit).

I heavily doubt Bv S counts, especially since the entry itself says that movie is still divisive. Cut.

An entry can still be currently divisive, just not as hated as before. See how Phil Collins' soundtrack for Tarzan got Vindicated by History while still having its number of detractors.

Edited by AudioSpeaks2 on Oct 23rd 2023 at 3:21:35 PM

I'm pretty sure "Still divisive, but less hated than in the past" has been deemed misuse.

Also that Phil Collins soundtrack received an Oscar, so it was well received at the time. (I think this Oscar is more so where its negative reputation came from, as people are upset it beat Blame Canada). If you were liked enough to receive an Oscar that's not really any vindication needed.

I mean people who hated the soundtrack at the time hated it more than it just beating Blame Canada. Collins was absolutely overexposed and a very uncool thing to like in the '90s.

This is Also seriously under estimating the fact it's cited now frequrntly as the thing that killed the dceu.

That implies that there was anything to kill in the first place since the DCEU had exactly one already disreputable movie prior to Batman v Superman. Also the DCEU is still going and the vast majority of films in it were released after it. It's more accurate to say that it tainted the reputation of the DCEU from the gate.

Oh uh yeah that's what I meant. You can even see if you check a box office chart how after it failed. It negatively affected every thing that came later (Aquaman being the ecpection)

Recently The Last Jedi was added to the page... okay, talking about this film feels like stepping into a minefield, but even as someone who likes it more than some fans I'd hardly call it vindicated. The entry even admits that it's still divisive, which feels like it already disqualifies the entry.

• The Last Jedi, despite being a critical hit, was regarded as 'extremely' divisive in the eyes of audiences when it was first released, with many of its detractors claiming that it heralded the death of the franchise. However, after the release of its much more detested follow-up The Rise of Skywalker (which undid much of Last Jedi's plot due to J. J. Abrams not liking its direction), as well as Disney's newer Star Wars projects becoming more experimental with the franchise to varying results (Andor in particular being considered quite good for its different take on the universe), many, although it still is a divisive movie to fans as of today, have begun to look better at The Last Jedi, with more appreciation due to its ambition and attempt to deviate from the cookie-cutter blockbuster style of its predecessor, with many fans even claiming it to be the best movie in the Sequel Trilogy as a result.

Seems like misuse to me, for the reasons you said.

Often, when I see people who hate the sequels bring them up online, they claim all three sequels are bad. Or some will say that it's The Last Jedi's fault that Rise of Skywalker is so bad. I have yet to see people who hate TLJ say "Well at least it's the best of the three", but that's just my experience.

There's also "thing's reputation redeemed by a worse thing coming out later" misuse in that example.

I feel it still being polarizing disqualifies it too.

The Last Jedi is just as intensively polarizing now as it was in 2017.

The Last Jedi was just re-added, without consulting this thread first, as a "downplayed" example. I'm pretty it can't be downplayed since it's YMMV. I haven't removed it yet since I think it'd count as an edit war:

• Downplayed though with The Last Jedi, which despite being a critical hit, was regarded as 'extremely' divisive in the eyes of audiences when it was first released and is still as such, with many of its detractors claiming that it heralded the death of the franchise. However, after the release of its much more detested follow-up The Rise of Skywalker (which undid much of Last Jedi's plot due to J. J. Abrams not liking its direction), as well as Disney's newer Star Wars projects becoming more experimental with the franchise to varying results (Andor in particular being considered quite good for its different take on the universe), the reputation may have begun to look better at The Last Jedi, with more appreciation due to its ambition and attempt to deviate from the cookie-cutter blockbuster style of its predecessor, with many defenders of the film even claiming it to be one of the greatest Star Wars movies as a result.

Yeah, you can't downplay YMMV. Who added it?

Peterlo 209 here, who previously readded the entry earlier in the month here.

Edited by harryhenry on Dec 31st 2023 at 3:41:30 AM

Should I remove the TLJ example again? Or is at this point an edit war?

I think it's fine to re-cut the TLJ example, since you have permission to do so. Just make sure you leave a link to this thread in the edit reason.

The user who added it back is edit warring, however, so they should probably be reported.

The Last Jedi: Vindicated by History: To an extent. Although critics were more positive to it, the film was responded with 'extremely' divisive reviews in the eyes of audiences and old Star Wars fans when it was first released, with many of its detractors claiming that it heralded the ruining of the franchise. However, after the release of its much more detested follow-up The Rise of Skywalker (which undid much of Last Jedi's plot due to J. J. Abrams not liking its direction), as well as Disney's newer Star Wars projects becoming more experimental with the franchise with some either considered better or average, although it still is a very divisive movie to fans as of today, some have begun to look better at The Last Jedi, with it's defenders appreciating its ambition and attempt to deviate from the cookie-cutter blockbuster style of its predecessor, and it's strengths like the Throne Room scene, the Holdo Maneuver, a scene where Leia using the force to survive being blown into space, awesome visual effects, the return of Yoda in a cameo, a cast of likeable characters, and some perfect character development for several characters. It is also agreed Rian gave a delicate direction that was a great departure from audience expectations that helped make the film more interesting at times.

It's not "To an extent," it either is or isn't. The Last Jedi has always had vocal fans and supporters, and it's always had vocal critics and haters, and it still remains divisive, which is not what Vindicated by History covers. Unless there comes a day when the movie actually gets the Empire Strikes Back treatment of being the "Tough Act to Follow" reference point of high quality for Star Wars as it is (which I bring up specifically because it was in fact just as polarizing on release and is a true case of Vindicated by History IMO), I don't think it can be called for this movie, at least right now.

Edited by number9robotic on Jan 5th 2024 at 11:12:44 AM

Yeah, the Last Jedi example is a common type of misuse (though less egregious here since at least TLJ did receive positive critical reception) in which an older movie in a series is "vindicated" due to a newer movie receiving worse reception, even if the older movie was still not positively recieved. Plus, there are also some Star Wars fans who either liked or disliked both movies here.

Throwing my hat into the discussion, Last Jedi has probably seen a bit of resurgence in discussion through Nerrel's video on it, analyzing the fan reaction to many of the film's doings, and word has spread regarding some of the positive qualities of the film. I still would keep it cut however, because its general reputation hasn't improved to this day (and is still accused of being the main culprit behind the failure of the Disney sequels).

Btw to the Phil Collins example above, considering Tarzan was itself a huge reason many people became Phil Collins fans thanks to this film giving exposure to him for Disney fans, it can't really count as a proper analogy to this discussion considering it made so many new fans of his work with it. I should know, as a kid the soundtrack was what really kept me returning to this film.

Edited by Kirb-Star on Jan 13th 2024 at 3:34:21 PM

While I enjoy Nerrel's work I wouldn't give it too much credit, since it wasn't the only positive take out there, and the positive qualities discussed have been brought up since Day 1.

I think Dragon Ball GT should be re-added to the anime page. It was considered poor follow up to Z at the time but given the backlash to Super all the stuff from GT people now treasure and agree was genuinely good, I think it’s definitely worthy of being an example.

Not to mention the upcoming Daima film is doing what GT did to Goku to the entire cast.

"People didn't like this thing, but now people also dislike this newer thing" is very much not how Vb H works.