Unclear Description: Obligatory War Crime Scene

I still like No Heroes In War, but I worry about examples where the protagonist acts as Token Good Teammate to the rest of his squad, which can sound contradictory.

All's Fair In War was my suggestion, but I like No Heroes In War as well.

No Heroes In War sounds like a pretty good name.

I'm conceding the fact that the villainous war crime examples, at least for the moment, can't be their own trope as of this writing, due to lack of deeper context and/or the risk of becoming a chair, so I'm in favor.

No Heroes In War is a little unindicative for "ostensibly Hero Protagonist commits a war crime".

There's plenty of time to brainstorm better names. The crowner that decides whether we rename at all has to run for at least three more days.

I think the title "Obligatory War Crime Scene" makes it sound as if the trope is about war media in particular, and not about the morality of war crimes in a larger sense. This may fit films and books made during a war, as many WWII movies, in which they had to show how bad Nazis or Imperial Japanese were. (In other words, the villains.) I'd definitely drop "obligatory" and 'scene" from the title, as misleading readers to see it as a behind-the-scenes trope.

The title “War Crime Subverts Heroism” seems like it will attract a lot of Designated Hero wicks like “this Designated Hero commits a war crime that is never called out in the film itself or seen as wrong, therefore War Crime Subverts Heroism”, whereas No Heroes In War better gets across the Aesop that is the center of the trope.

Really? Because Designated Hero actually does work for a trope that is "the heroes would be good except for this atrocity that they commit" since the trope doesn't require anyone to object to the atrocity.

On the other hand, No Heroes In War sounds like a grey vs grey conflict in a war story, like All Quiet on the Western Front, which doesn't have this trope in play.

OK, so the page has been moved, the Renamed Tropes page and thread have been updated, and a notice has been placed on the old discussion page.

Here are the wicks, and the on-page examples need to be looked through as well since I just moved the page and didn't do any cleanup when moving it. I did, however, remove the paragraph related to villains, since we decided to revert the definition back to solely being about heroes committing war crimes.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Mar 27th 2022 at 9:34:47 AM

I cleared the Main/ wicks and removed on-page examples that either were committed by villains or didn't provide sufficient context for me to tell whether it was the heroes committing the war crimes.

I'll eventually have to figure out what to do with those villainous examples, most likely a separate trope at some point. I've been having discussions with other tropers on another forum, and they have told me that Kick the Dog, given its broad meaning, might be too broad for just these kinds of villainous war crimes as a whole. That said, I do need to find what's consistent with these portrayals to make them unique, and not just rush this idea.

Made a further edit to the description to remove a reference to 'heroic portrayal'.

I can't tell if the current page image is an example of a "good" guy doing it. From the trope entry for the images work:

• Call of Duty: World at War goes even further. The Pacific campaign starts with your character being tortured by his Japanese captors, and features ambushes from units playing dead, booby traps, and kamikaze attacks. In response, the Americans employ flamethrowers to great effect. The Eastern front has the repeated execution of wounded soldiers, the razing of crops and homes, and the massacre of surrendering soldiers... and that's as the Russians.

What do we do if it the good and bad side committing such? Which side is being represented in the image? If it's not clear thus not conveying the new use should it be cut/replaced?

The image is completely out of context and has poor visibility. If the trope description is finalized, the pic shoukd be sent to IP for a pull and replacement.

The page image isn't, since it's the Imperial Japanese Army, the antagonist faction, doing the torture, not the US Marines. That said, all war crimes listed under the Soviet Red Army and US Marines in the example do count as this trope, as they are the factions that the Player Character is from in their respective campaign. And they do ultimately show that they're not that different from the Axis in how brutal they can get.

to that idea. I was the one who placed that image back in 2016 or 2017, and now that the trope has been overhauled it's aged like milk left outside a refrigerator.

Edited by Rmpdc on Apr 20th 2022 at 4:51:45 PM

Yeah, take it to Image Pickin if it needs to be changed.

Done here (most had to be cut due to a trifecta of a horrible name, Trope Decay, and most examples being misuse), so closing.