Needs Help: Ron The Death Eater

This is long overdue so I thought might as well start it myself. Ron the Death Eater is currently listed on tropes needing trs for the following "Multiple problems, from people being unsure if it's about something subjective or objective, the tropes heavily overlapping with Adaptational Heroism and Adaptational Villainy, and the concern of general examples with no cited fanfics or whether such examples are general in the first place, as YMMV is meant to be an overview of a fandom's thoughts and usually doesn't require citations that something happens." The Ron The Death Eater Wick Check revealed something unsurprising.

• 21/55 are for Specific fanfiction
• 12/55 are for General fanfiction
• 19/55 are for Fandom perception
• 4/55 have some other issue

I honestly have no idea what to do about this trope since from what I have seen people aren't even sure on what the trope should be used for and it is just really confusing in general.

NOTE: This thread is also covering Draco in Leather Pants.

Edited by Ordeaux26 on Jul 11th 2021 at 4:18:51 AM

I always thought this (and Draco in Leather Pants) should really be about the "fandom perception", as I don't think examples that are "character is villified for X reason" are general as YMMV is meant to be an overall perception of the fandom of a work. Specific fanfic examples can work better on Adaptational Villainy.

Edited by Piterpicher on Jul 9th 2021 at 6:35:35 PM

I wonder if we should move the specific fanfic examples to Adaptational Villainy?

The general fanfic examples can probably stay along with fandom portrayals. That would mean refining the description.

That idea has come up before, but from what I remember the idea was dismissed because it would violate Examples Are Not General

I don't think Examples Are Not General is broken in this case, as explained above.

Edited by Piterpicher on Jul 9th 2021 at 6:48:39 PM

Well, it depends entirely on your interpretation of what this trope should be.

My take has always been that these tropes should be about specific instances, and it's mostly because if they're not, they become too redundant with things like Alternative Character Interpretation.

Then again, it's been ages since I've last debated about this, and some of my thoughts might've changed. For those curious, here's the first debate thread. A lot of my opinions are explored there, but I might not fully agree with myself anymore.

The problem with that is that option is redundant as well with Adaptational Villainy.

Well, yes, sort of.

We're stuck between a rock and a hard place I guess.

If this trope is redundant with another no matter which option we pick maybe a dismbig would be the best choice, though considering how popular and well known this trope is that might not work.

I feel like the difference between Ron the Death Eater and Adaptational Villainy is motivation. Adaptational Villainy doesn't necessarily happen because a writer hates the character. In the case of Ron the Death Eater, the writer clearly hates the character.

To me that seems like The Same, but More Specific.

Should we cover Draco in Leather Pants here too, since it's the trope's opposite? Or should we keep it separate?

It even has a finished wick check.

I wanted to do that but I can't include both tropes in the title, but sure we can include that.

Edited by Ordeaux26 on Jul 9th 2021 at 9:45:26 AM

Adaptation can apply to fanfiction as well?

Yes, it can.

I disagree. I think the motivation adds a dynamic that makes the trope unique. A director making a character a villain because the story has no real antagonist, isn't the same as someone a villain because they hate that character.

Edited by RustBeard on Jul 9th 2021 at 12:20:27 PM

Honestly, I'm leaning towards making this about general fandom trends rather than specific examples in fan works. Those can certainly be used to back up a case for a character qualifying, however.

I could get behind that.

Edit: Whatever we do, we should probably apply the same changes to Draco in Leather Pants.

Edited by RustBeard on Jul 9th 2021 at 12:32:19 PM

&

Edited by Delibirda on Jul 9th 2021 at 9:47:59 PM

Seconded. I've always thought these tropes were about fandom perception.

That's what I've always thought it was meant to be about as well - specific examples are almost always just Adaptational Villainy regardless of the reasoning behind it

That is true; I'd keep it as a general fandom trend.

This isn't about the general perception by part of a work's fandom? I honestly always thought it was that.

Anyway, I'll give a to actually making it about general fandom trends and moving all specific fan work examples to Adaptational Jerkass/Adaptational Villainy.

Edited by jandn2014 on Jul 9th 2021 at 4:15:31 AM

Eh I can go with that idea, though I am still worried this might violate Examples Are Not General and the mods might feel that way.

YMMV tropes about works tend to be general anyway, albeit they need to have basis within the fandom - Examples Are Not General is definitely more about In-Universe tropes than meta stuff.