Complaining: Designated Hero

Add some info about which of those are mutually exclusive and I think that'll be good to go.

So, which ones are exclusive? I'm trying to add tags, but I'm not sure which ones to add tags to. I assume that the "redefine" and "Flame Bait" options are mutually exclusive, but what else?

Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness

Why does every trope I like using end up in the repair shop?

Find the Light in the Dark

Because you guys like using these so much that they get shoehorned everywhere? Just a hunch.

Feel free to stick around and help us figure out how to fix it, but if you're just coming to popcorn then I'd suggest you don't.

Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness

Yeah, those are mutually exclusive. These need to be clarified/reworded but I think they are mutually exclusive:

• Place the restriction that Villain Protagonist or Nineties Antihero characters and non-Hero Antagonist antagonist characters cannot qualify (Too many double negatives I got confused)
• Exclude Nominal Hero characters from the trope, while allowing other kinds of Anti Heroes as long as the narrative treats them as heroic

Perhaps we should reword to these mutually exclusive options:

• Exclude all characters that the narrative portrays as morally grey (eg. the Villain Protagonist, Anti-Hero except Classical Anti-Hero)
• Exclude Nominal Hero characters but allow other kinds of Anti-Hero as long as the narrative treats them as more heroic than the bad guys, even if their actions are morally ambiguous

Edited by Synchronicity on Apr 30th 2021 at 10:02:02 AM

That sounds good. Probably better worded than my attempt.

TRS Queue | Works That Require Cleanup of Complaining | Troper Wall

Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness

Alright, so an updated potential crowner:

• Rename (A)
• Make Flame Bait (B) (mutually exclusive with all but A)
• Start a cleanup thread to remove complaining (C)
• Remove the restriction that the audience must dislike the character (D)
• Define as "a character whose actions are painted in a heroic light, even though their actions can be seen as morally ambiguous or even villainous" (E)
• Exclude all characters that the narrative portrays as morally grey (eg. the Villain Protagonist, Anti-Hero except Classical Anti-Hero) (F) (mutually exclusive with G)
• Exclude Nominal Hero characters but allow other kinds of Anti-Hero as long as the narrative treats them as more heroic than the bad guys, even if their actions are morally ambiguous (G) (mutually exclusive with F)

What else would be mutually exclusive with the others? And did I screw up any of the mutual exclusivity?

TRS Queue | Works That Require Cleanup of Complaining | Troper Wall

I think that I'd like to suggest that we deal with only the definitional adjustments for the first crowner. We don't usually have so many options all for one page.

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Right, because those results can affect people's opinions on the other options.

Edited by crazysamaritan on May 4th 2021 at 11:02:06 AM

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.

So only D-G?

TRS Queue | Works That Require Cleanup of Complaining | Troper Wall

Alright then, updated potential crowner.

• Remove the restriction that the audience must dislike the character (A)
• Define as "a character whose actions are painted in a heroic light, even though their actions can be seen as morally ambiguous or even villainous" (B)
• Exclude all characters that the narrative portrays as morally grey (eg. the Villain Protagonist, Anti-Hero except Classical Anti-Hero) (C) (mutually exclusive with D)
• Exclude Nominal Hero characters but allow other kinds of Anti-Hero as long as the narrative treats them as more heroic than the bad guys, even if their actions are morally ambiguous (D) (mutually exclusive with C)

Any more work that needs to be done before I make a crowner with these options?

TRS Queue | Works That Require Cleanup of Complaining | Troper Wall

Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness

Alright, made the crowner.

TRS Queue | Works That Require Cleanup of Complaining | Troper Wall

I think we've got consensus to go with A and B.

Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness

With C and D not getting consensus, who can be included as "a character whose actions are painted in a heroic light"?

I think it is for just anybody you can reasonably apply 'hero' to. The point of those options were who in that pool you can exclude, not who you can include.

I am surprised people are fine with including Nominal Hero though.

Edited by Synchronicity on May 13th 2021 at 5:30:38 AM

I suppose it's because, with Nominal Hero, even if the hero doesn't have a particularly heroic motives (e.g. being a hero for money, fame, or just to kill time), the narrative can still frame their actions as heroic. In terms of deeds, they can actually be less immoral than Unscrupulous Hero or maybe even the Pragmatic Hero, who might indulge in villanous acts (e.g. threats, trickery, unnecessary violence, Pay Evil unto Evil) but genuinely has heroic motives.

Edited by Adept on May 15th 2021 at 7:12:16 PM

For the record, the crowner now says

So A, B, and D are within consensus range at this time. The crowner is apparently still not stable, so let's check in again after the weekend.

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.

I want to clarify the point A, but are we now judging the case by the specific actions rather than the person behind the action? Because this definition can technically apply to any non-hero characters whose actions in a particular instance is framed in-story as heroic, even though Fridge Logic and other factors cause fans to think otherwise.

e.g. "Bob is a Sociopathic Hero who defeats the Big Bad by shooting the hostage, and this is portrayed as the right thing to do, especially since it is later revealed that the hostage is working together with the villain. However, Bob didn't know that the hostage was Evil All Along at that time and only shot her because he's too impatient, and fans thinks that his action makes him no better than the villain."

Edited by Adept on May 18th 2021 at 11:13:39 PM

That's where the Nominal Hero rule comes into play. Because their action was based on callous disregard, they're just tangentially involved in the quest for Good over Evil. At least, within the context of the example that you gave, that's how I interpret it.

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.

Admittedly, an example that short with no extra context to point to could be interpreted in many different ways. I read it and found myself wondering, "Well, yeah, why WOULDN'T he count?".

Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness

Yeah, that's a big factor. Actual examples where we might have some disagreement would be better to use.

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.

@crazysamaritan: I was actually asking just in case neither C and D get any consensus, so there's no restriction. But since D does have consensus, I suppose the point is moot.