Trope names with outdated and/or offensive language

This is a tough one. It should mention denial without being confused with Arbitrary Skepticism or I Reject Your Reality...

We could do something like Denying That Switzerland Exists, which is clearer, isn't racist, and can't be confused with an existing trope.

That's slightly better. Also Denying That Transylvania Exists to reference a place associated with myth and horror stories.

"Denying Real Life Thing"?

Assuming the trope were renamed, I’d prefer it refer to something specific and silly, like narwhals or Switzerland- that name sounds too dull.

Edited by jandn2014 on Sep 29th 2020 at 9:44:15 AM

At least I'm glad it's not "unclear"

My suggestion was just for starters

Yeah, I don't think that page can be renamed to something that is clear, concise, and witty — it's the classic "choose any two" dilemma.

In that case, the first two is usually preferred. IIRC, the clear, concise, witty rule is listed in the order of diminishing priority.

I actually like that name. The notion of someone denying an obviously real thing (even if it's not specifically named) is sillier the alternative, IMO.

Edited by Adept on Sep 29th 2020 at 10:33:51 PM

I think actual efforts to rename the trope should be done in a TRS thread. This was just to determine whether anything would need a rename just for using outdated or offensive language.

Right, I continue to point to Transgender since that was renamed after a lot of pushback once it became clear that "Transsexual" was no longer the main term when referring to trans people at large, so not only was "Transgender" more respectful, it was just more broad and accurate. I'm curious if any other tropes would fall under that.

Edited by mightymewtron on Sep 29th 2020 at 12:56:58 PM

So judging by the reactions to Hot Gypsy Woman and Eskimos Aren't Real, it seems like outdated terms by themselves are not enough, but they're extra motivation to rename if the existing name is already problematic (unclear in this case).

How's this for a TRS thread nomination (under Ambiguous Name):

"A Trope Talk discussion found that the name does not clearly describe the trope, which is about denying that something in Real Life exists. 'Eskimo' is also an outdated ethnic slur, so it attracts vandalism as well."

I'm once again reminded of my first ATT query which lead to another one that renamed a useful notes page. That's another thing related to this; how broad tropes like Disabled Character, Disabled Actor are, since some members of the neurodiversity movement don't identify as disabled.

Edited by ccorb on Sep 29th 2020 at 1:17:36 PM

One user suggests that the TRS thread should have a wick check. There are 328 wicks, so we will need to check at least 50 pages. Direct evidence of vandalism would be beneficial, by means of linking to diffs in the history.

Honestly, while I appreciate your enthusiasm for fixing tropes, you might want to slow down with starting TRS threads. The backlog is very big and there are tropes with worse and/or earlier-documented problems, so O Ps now need to be very convincing.

Edited by Synchronicity on Sep 30th 2020 at 11:11:42 AM

Has Eskimos Aren't Real actually attracted vandalism yet?

Not to my awareness. It seems less "obvious" of a target than Fag Hag — to a first approximation, everyone already knows calling gay men "fag" is rude, but that "Eskimo" is not the preferred nomenclature is less widespread.

Edited by wingedcatgirl on Sep 30th 2020 at 9:22:47 AM

Replace “Eskimo” in Eskimos Aren't Real with literally any proper noun and the meaning is the same. Paris Isnt Real, Marmots Arent Real, Brazilians Arent Real, The Shinkansen Isnt Real, etc etc and you get the same meaning. Easy fix. But I agree that this is low priority.

FYI “Eskimo” is highly offensive to Canadian Inuit people but is somewhat less offensive in Alaska, where it is still used to refer to Yupik and other Native Alaskan peoples who are not ethnically Inuit and speak a different language but have some similarities in terms of lifestyle and history to the Inuit. So Inuit is not a 1-for-1 replacement for Eskimo.

Following on the Eskimos replacement idea, we could do Dracula Isnt Real in following the Transylvania suggestion. For reference, Vlad "Tepes" Dracul III was a real person from Transylvania who actually did go by "Dracula" ("Son of Dracul") and was accused by his enemies of being some kind of monster, but the name "Dracula" has become synonymous with a fictional vampire to the point that it's somewhat reasonable for someone to mistakenly think "Dracula" never existed.

Edited by Dirtyblue929 on Sep 30th 2020 at 10:33:11 AM

That doesn't really fit the trope, though. That's not a refusal to believe a real thing exists, it's misunderstanding the subject to refer to someone more popular with the same name. More like One Mario Limit than anything.

It's just one potential rename for Eskimos Aren't Real because "eskimo" is now considered an offensive word and it would be a pretty easy rename since it's basically a placeholder word. Though any discussions on specific tropes like that should go in the TRS thread - I know one was started for this trope already.

Edited by mightymewtron on Sep 30th 2020 at 2:53:45 PM

The "Transylvania doesn't exist" idea doesn't fit this thread's aims.

Were you guys talking about a potential new trope page?

I agree that Eskimos Aren't Real should be renamed. There's no need to use an outdated term when dozens of other nouns would do.

I still like Doesnt Believe In Narwhals, to be honest

"Doesn't Believe in Narwhals" is okay, though I'd put "Doesn't Believe in a Real Thing" just in case.

But first, I want to ask: is the trope Eskimos Aren't Real actually problematic? Does it cause vandalism or did misuses happen because of it? That's what the TRS folks care more than just "we don't like this title so we wanna change it". (As much as I hate that fact)

Doesnt Believe In Narwhals would be excellent.

It's time to ditch the Esk!mo name. Even Edmonton's CFL team ditched that name despite having that name for many decades. To non-Canadians, the CFL is like the Canadian counterpart to the NFL.

Edited by Nen_desharu on Oct 1st 2020 at 12:16:02 PM

Doesn't Believe in the North Pole.

I thought it was just the term for the indigenous people of the northern circumpolar region.