Audience-Alienating Premise cleanup

Not an example, Grave of the Fireflies is a quite famous and well lauded anime, so the premise most certainly did not alienate an audience.

Sounds way more like Too Bleak, Stopped Caring.

I feel people really take the literal aspect of this trope's title way too literally. I feel too many of the cuts are just THIS WORK DIDN'T SELL ZERO COPIES AND DISGUST EVERYONE. At the end of the day, what seems "difficult" will always be subjective to a degree. All the time, there are Unintentionally Unsympathetic entries that aren't really opinions shared outside of TV Tropes. But that's fine because I don't necessarily think TV Tropes is this aggregator of opinion but more a genenrator of opinion/opinion site which occasionally legitimises itself via appeal to consensus. It seems as if a work only bombed relative to other works from an extremely popular artist (for example, Tusk) or did in fact cause controversy but didn't earn zero dollars, it doesn't count. It feels to me like people are concerned about people complaining about shows they don't like but AAP should be neutral. Too often, it isn't. I'm a fan of Velma but I do think that despite its massive ratings success, it did alienate a huge amount of fans with its In Name Only approach and also got a critical drubbing. The critics did seem to not like Velma 2023 very much. Its post-modern genuinely does seem to have annoyed people and its politics seem somewhat all over the place. I do honestly think that there's a ton of overlap between Uncertain Audience and AAP to the point that I'd argue they're sister tropes. Also, a while back, I volunteered Assholes and I think a movie from the same scene had somewhat of a controversy around it - Actors has a story about a fictionalised version of Peter Vack pretending to transition into being a woman. It's ambiguous how serious his gender non-conformity is (Petra openly says he still uses he/him pronouns) and how much is due to insecurity about how "no-one wants to hear from cis white male voices anymore". The film is directed by Betsey Brown, Vack's sister. It was accused of transphobia by the critic Mike Crumplar and a fair few others. IDK I think it's prime AAP material considering it's irreverent about a hot button topic and also contains in its backstory a film that was AAP (Assholes' underperformance is part of what prompts Petra's neurosis) which very much ties it to details of the Dimes Square scene which makes it overly specific to that scene (not to mention that scene being right-wing and controversial).

Please split up those paragraphs. That's a massive wall of text. I can't legitimately tell what you're saying(allcaps are also never necessary. Please use italics or bold to emphasize stuff. It's far easier for everyone to read). :)

That's fair. Is this better?

I feel people really take the literal aspect of this trope's title way too literally. I feel too many of the cuts are just this work didn't sell zero copies and disgust everyone. At the end of the day, what seems "difficult" will always be subjective to a degree. All the time, there are Unintentionally Unsympathetic entries that aren't really opinions shared outside of TV Tropes. But that's fine because I don't necessarily think TV Tropes is this aggregator of opinion but more a genenrator of opinion/opinion site which occasionally legitimises itself via appeal to consensus. It seems as if a work only bombed relative to other works from an extremely popular artist (for example, Tusk) or did in fact cause controversy but didn't earn zero dollars, it doesn't count. It feels to me like people are concerned about people complaining about shows they don't like but AAP should be neutral. Too often, it isn't.

I'm a fan of Velma but I do think that despite its massive ratings success, it did alienate a huge amount of fans with its In Name Only approach and also got a critical drubbing. The critics did seem to not like Velma 2023 very much. Its post-modern genuinely does seem to have annoyed people and its politics seem somewhat all over the place. I do honestly think that there's a ton of overlap between Uncertain Audience and AAP to the point that I'd argue they're sister tropes.

Also, a while back, I volunteered Assholes and I think a movie from the same scene had somewhat of a controversy around it - Actors has a story about a fictionalised version of Peter Vack pretending to transition into being a woman. It's ambiguous how serious his gender non-conformity is (Petra openly says he still uses he/him pronouns) and how much is due to insecurity about how "no-one wants to hear from cis white male voices anymore". The film is directed by Betsey Brown, Vack's sister. It was accused of transphobia by the critic Mike Crumplar and a fair few others. IDK I think it's prime AAP material considering it's irreverent about a hot button topic and also contains in its backstory a film that was AAP (Assholes' underperformance is part of what prompts Petra's neurosis) which very much ties it to details of the Dimes Square scene which makes it overly specific to that scene (not to mention that scene being right-wing and controversial).

Edited by YeetBoiSwag on Mar 21st 2023 at 6:30:29 PM

Re-edited the above post to have formatting.

Sorry, are you trying to bring up an example?

Between the all caps ranting and rambling, huge size of your post I think maybe there's a movie you're trying to talk about, but its unclear.

Also, considering that the director behind We're All Going to the World's Fair Jane Schoenbrun managed to get the film pulled from a theatre showing, I think the idea of the movie has caused sufficient controversy.

Sorry about the all caps. The original re edited version was copied from output and so missed all formatting. Did a dog's dinner of cleaning up the post, sorry everyone

If there are examples that aren't shared outside of TV Tropes then you should probably be naming them because there shouldn't be. That's, like, 95 percent of why we have this entire subforum.

This might be my bias as an LDS member/Mormon talking again, but I found this questionable entry on the The Tales of Alvin Maker:

• Audience-Alienating Premise: Hey, what if Joseph Smith had magic powers? And was right about everything! And wasn't as incredibly racist and horny!

Whether or not the series qualifies was something I haven’t been able to verify sales wise, the only anecdote I can note is that Ian Flynn mentioned its magic system positively in one of his Bumblekasts. But even assuming it’s valid, it’s clearly very mocking in tone with that implying its validity and the last sentence is particularly loaded (I’m not going to defend his polygamy, but Joseph Smith was if anything less racist than the average person of his time). Another red flag is that it’s also an edit from surgoshan, the same user who shoehorned commentary about the LDS Church on Orson Scott Card’s page.

Assuming it does count, here’s my suggested rewrite:

• Audience-Alienating Premise: An Alternate History and fantasy version of the USA focusing on a fictionalized/whitewashed version of Mormonism founder Joseph Smith inevitably was going to limit the appeal of these books.

Edited by DDRMASTERM on Mar 22nd 2023 at 8:55:01 AM

Sounds much better.

Well, I'd argue removing articles that reference a minority opinion wouldn't be possible as TV Tropes creates opinion rather than referring to it.

Also, in reference to my Velma comments (a show I am very much a fan of - too many people take AAP as an insult or some kind of badge of honour), I would argue that while many shows have been brigaded, a show that inspires such vitriol that it was downvoted into being the worst rated animated show on imdb is sufficiently base-breaking and controversial to qualify for AAP.

If you're not gonna bring up an example of this "minority opinion", you should probably stop talking about it. Otherwise you're not really saying anything, cause you're talking in circles.

As far as Velma, the only wrinkle is that from what I could find, it's actually getting a second season. Otherwise I would say it should definitely qualify. Bile Fascination might play a role there.

Again, TV Tropes is not supposed to be creating opinions, and if you think there are cases of that you should say what they are.

Found this example from I'm Thinking of Ending Things, which doesn't actually explain what the work's premise is and doesn't offer any objective proof that it actually alienated it's audience:

• Audience-Alienating Premise: The movie is quite confusing, meaning a lot of it you'll only get upon rewatching it. The issue with that is it's also incredibly depressing, to the point where many won't want to rewatch.

Go ahead and cut that.

Sounds like another misplaced Too Bleak, Stopped Caring entry.

Is there an inherent contradiction if a premise is Too Bleak, Stopped Caring? Because I’m not seeing one. If the premise isn’t inherently such then I get that.

Edited by DDRMASTERM on Apr 2nd 2023 at 6:45:06 AM

I don't think Velma's backlash was just due to its premise, because the premise of a Velma-centric Scooby Doo drama spinoff was actually quite anticipated IIRC. The execution was the issue. Unless the more specific "done without Scooby in the style of Riverdale" is the "premise" in question?

I'm pretty sure Velma's backlash was mostly because Velma herself was an extremely unlikable character, as well as the meanspirited and overly sexual humor in general.

From what I can tell, at least most of Velma's hate isn't due to the premise. So, from what I know at least, it doesn't count.

I don't think people were actually against a Dark And Edgier Scooby doo (Mystery Inc is adored by the fan base after all) or even a self parody (The franchise does that all the time).

I'm pretty sure it's the execution people had an issue with.

Someone pointed out that we cut examples for not selling zero copies and being Hated by All. No we cut examples for not having proof that work alienated audiences, which is why financial failure is a requirement. And Velma doesn’t qualify since it was a massive ratings success on release.

Tbd I think that was Bile Fascination than people being enamoured with the show.

Which yeah is more appropriate to put the show under.