Foil Cleanup Thread

While I'm here, I may as well go over Foil.Steven Universe, another show I know fairly well.

Edited by mightymewtron on Mar 25th 2022 at 2:25:52 PM

Er... Steven Universe is something I know even less than I know Total Drama. The keeps and cuts all seem solid, just dunno what to say for the edge cases.

Sighs... someone added all the Foil misuse I cut to MirrorCharacter.Total Drama. Never mind that the point is that several of the characters I cut, such as Trent and Courtney, do not interact. They thus don't qualify for Mirror Character either.

~Spectacular Troper

Ehhhhh....Mirror Character doesn't have a restriction to interact with each other (tbf, I don't think Foil should, either), so that's not actually a disqualification. I haven't seen the examples so I don't know about them, but still.

Foil has that restriction because it's literally part of the literary term's definition. We can't water it down to fit common usage- it's about characters whose interactions highlight their differences.

Eh. IME, Foil characters definitely show up sometimes to offset each other's differences in similar situations without necessarily interacting but juxtaposed in other ways. Is interacting most common? Sure. But still. That's not "watering down the definition." It's acknowledging there's more than one way to juxtapose characters. Foils are about offsetting each other, not their interactions.

Edited by Eiryu on Mar 27th 2022 at 1:05:38 PM

But many of these examples are about characters who didn't even appear in the same story arc, whose stories are generally quite different besides some broad strokes.

Plus, the description of Foil specifically says they need to be seen together.

I get your view that interactions aren't the only way to contrast characters, but I think they should at least interact a bit and there should be a clear narrative intention to contrast their story arcs. If one character barely even has an arc, they shouldn't count.

Edited by mightymewtron on Mar 27th 2022 at 2:44:27 PM

No, I know that. I know the description says that, and I kinda get why even though I don’t like it. But regardless, it’s not part of Mirror Character’s definition, so not interacting doesn’t preclude it. Again, as I said in the first post I made, haven’t seen the examples and know little about the show.

Edited by Eiryu on Mar 27th 2022 at 1:59:19 PM

Mirror Character was set up to catch Foil misuse, right? If so I assumed the same rules applied. (Or was it Not So Different misuse?)

Either way, a lot of the entries feel like stretches. For one, Alejandro and Harold make no sense as mirror characters or foils when Harold barely has an arc in Season 3 and really does not act like Alejandro at all. And Alejandro is never compared to Justin in the narrative, just in fandom.

It was Not So Different misuse, but it's something of a countertrope to Foil.

There's been debate about whether foils need to interact. Personally I think that they don't, but that you still need to be able to describe how they are juxtaposed by the narrative other than "exist in the same story" and that most of the non-interacting pairs people claim are examples are actually not.

I mean, every single definition I've ever seen has the "must interact" clause, so, eh.

Hello, I move the Total Drama Foil examples to the Total Drama Mirror Character page. I'm not trying to cause trouble, but I did this before because I felt those examples were great and didn't want them to go to waste. The problem was that for two characters to be a Foil, they had to interact in the universe to be an example. Well, there are a lot of very similar characters or different characters that are in a similar situation that never meets or interacts in canon. However, since Mirror Character does not have that rule, I decided to move the deleted examples there. I feel these examples make sense; they perfectly point out the similarities these characters have and point out how different they are.

But many of these are just pointing out similarities without explaining how the narrative highlights those similarities. Most of them aren't juxtaposed in any way and are just listing fandom comparisons between characters.

...maybe this warrants a Trope Talk thread about the scope of Mirror Character?

Uh, I mean, the description of Mirror Character is pretty clear that there’s a narrative purpose to the similarities, not just the characters are similar. If that’s the reasoning, that’s misuse. “Wow these characters are similar!” Is just. Chairs.

Doesn't Total Drama completely replace characters every season? I'm failing to see how any new characters would be introduced to in any way comment on even the previous characters' behavior.

Edited by Eiryu on Mar 28th 2022 at 11:28:42 AM

No, it doesn't. For the first three seasons, it was all the same characters, though not all of them returned each time (and the third season introduced Alejandro and Sierra to the main cast). It was only in the fourth season that they introduced an entirely new cast of islanders, and even then the originals still stuck around.

The issue is pretty much just what Mew is saying- some of these characters just flat out don't interact, they're not juxtaposed, their narratives aren't even related. Also, I'm confused at why we'd transfer something from Foil to Mirror Character anyhow- one is about differences and one is about similarities, so...?

Edited by WarJay77 on Mar 28th 2022 at 1:38:37 PM

Because while they have similar functions, the descriptions in these examples are just comparing and contrasting characters with little explanation on the specifics of their juxtaposition. If you can move from Foil to Mirror Character and not change the example at all, that's a problem. One is about highlighting contrasts while one is about highlighting similarities.

Edited by mightymewtron on Mar 28th 2022 at 1:46:24 PM

Agreed. They're frequently overlapping tropes, but in this case they're not really either.

(Sorry if this is a bit long...)

Something I want to add to this conversation: What about something like counterpart Pokémon? In most generations, there are pairs of evolutionary lines that are considered "counterparts" to one another. Examples include: The Magmar and Electabuzz lines; the Misdreavus and Murkrow lines; Solrock and Lunatone; the Swirlix and Spritzee lines; the Impadimp and Hatenna lines; Stonjourner and Eiscue and so on.

Many of these species often have traits that often compare and contrast them with their "counterparts". The Impadimp and Hatenna lines are a good example. Both Gen VIII Pokemon evolve at Level 32, then at Level 42; Both have the same base total for each evolutionary stage; Both are inspired by European folklore (Impadimp's line resembled trolls while Hatenna's resembled witches); Both have the Fairy type in their final forms; Both final forms are stated to use their hair to fight; And both have Gigantamax forms and exclusive G-Max moves. And while the Impadimp line is exclusively male, the Hatenna line is exclusively female.

Many of these pairs are listed in the Pokemon pages as examples of Foils. However, many of these species don't necessarily interact with one another - In fact, some of these pairs are version-exclusives (For instance, Stonjourner could only be caught in Sword, while Eiscue could only be caught in Shield), so they rarely interact without player trading. So if these counterparts rarely interact, could they still be considered Foils? And if not, what kind of trope would they be?

Edit: Markup issues (recently joined; still getting used to markup)

Edited by KaabiiFan13 on Apr 10th 2022 at 7:41:56 AM

So, I was wondering if we could make a Foil page for Sonic the Hedgehog 2 (2022) because there seems to be quite a bit of characters who are foils to each other. Some examples from the character page includes:

Sonic the Hedgehog (film series)?from=Characters.Sonic The Hedgehog 22022

Miles "Tails" Prower: Foil to Dr. Robotnik. Both are gadgeteer geniuses who had been outcasts during their childhoods. However, while Dr. Robotnik uses his gadgets for evil and is a Psychopathic Manchild , Tails is a young Child Prodigy who uses his gadgets for good.

Knuckles the Echidna: Foil to: Sonic: A red echidna with Super Strength to counter a blue hedgehog with Super Speed. His stoic and no-nonsense personality contrasts Sonic's wild, carefree and very talkative demeanor. The Echidna Tribe from the first film: He seems to be something of a foil to the Echidna tribe from the first film, as his first physical appearance has him expressing disinterest in Sonic's powers despite those being the reason the tribe chased him in the first place, as well as outright contempt that Sonic believed he'd need his powers to stand a chance at fighting him. Dr. Robotnik: His brutish strength and aggressive personality also makes him a polar opposite to Robotnik’s calculated and calm mannerisms. Robotnik: Work smarter, not harder.

I also wonder if Sonic and Tails are also foils to each other. Like, both characters are alien beings who came to Earth and both were ostracized for their unique abilities (Sonic's powers and Tails' twin tails). However, Sonic is much more confident in his abilities, while Tails is a bit unsure of his abilities, at first.

Also, maybe Tails and Knuckles are foils to each other as they are both alien beings who were alone most of their lives and they play sidekicks to both Sonic and Robotnik. However, Tails is a friendly fox who uses gadgets to take down opponents, while Knuckles is much rougher and uses his strength to take down his opponents.

Let me know if these examples are right and whether or not this movie deserves its own Foil page.

I don't know the work, but the Knuckles example sounds more like a Red Oni, Blue Oni inversion as written, which is a Foil sub-trope.

Have you checked to see whether any of the sub-tropes are a better fit for the examples (or are already on the pages — if the sub-tropes are present, the super-trope isn't usually added)?

Edited by Wyldchyld on Apr 11th 2022 at 4:55:18 AM

On April 18, 2022, I removed a Foil on the page for the character Zeff on One Piece: Blue Seas, with my reasoning that he and Vinsmoke Judge have not been seen on screen together, which As You Know is a main requirement. A few days later, user fishysaur choose to put it back with their reasoning being:

• "While Zeff and Judge don't appear together in person, the whole cake island arc mentions him a lot, putting him in contrast to Judge and making a lot of emphasis on how they raised and influenced Sanji".

So my question is how should I approach this if at all?

Edited by KageTsuki88 on Apr 26th 2022 at 3:24:41 PM

That sounds like a plot comparison. Foil tropes tend to be character comparisons, which is why the characters interact. If there's something going on at the plot level, that sounds like a different trope is needed.

However, I don't know the work, so I'd suggest others chime in with their thoughts.

Any thoughts on my previous post?