Duplicate Trope: Grandma What Massive Hotness You Have

From the Merriam-Webster Dictionary:

"Silver fox is sometimes used to refer to women with gray or white hair as well (in fact, the bestselling exercise video Richard Simmons and the Silver Foxes from 1987 clearly meant both men and women, since they perform the workout together behind the fitness guru), but many uses make clear reference to the fact that the term usually designates men:

• Good on her [Demi Moore] for showing it's not only men who can get away with the silver fox look. — Emma Cowing, _Scottish Daily Mail, 11 June 2016
• Hollywood's Female Silver Foxes: Women Who Rock Gray Hair — Diana Pearl, People, 18 April 2017

One term sometimes used here is silver vixen, as vixen is the word for a female fox and already has the meaning “a sexually attractive woman,” but so far this is much more rare than silver fox.

• She's the ultimate in sexy silver vixens. And we're celebrating her 70th birthday tomorrow with 70 facts from the amazing life of Dame Helen Mirren. — Clemmie Moodie, Daily Mirror, 25 July 2015"

Edited by Snicka on Sep 1st 2019 at 10:03:32 AM

I mean, we can always make a Silver Vixen redirect...

Current Project: Incorruptible Pure Pureness

Yepp. Let's maybe point out in the new Description that the term "silver fox" usually refers to men, but female examples are sometimes called "silver vixen".

That and the Silver Vixen redirect sound like good ideas.

Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.

I am sorry to just barge in. I just found this discussion and I find it interesting. If you let met a comment, besides what has already been discussing about merging, maybe Silver Fox should be put in the Unisex Tropes Index.

And if it helps, I remember at least one instance of using the phrase "Silver Fox" to refer to a female. One episode of Cake Boss, refering to Betty White.

That defends my point this should be a split trope of Silver Fox and Silver Vixen because Silver Fox is clearly gendered or there wouldn't be a distaff term in the first place.

Most common usage treats it as a male-gendered term and we defer to common outside usage, not force our own.

Edited by CryptidProductions on Sep 1st 2019 at 7:50:10 AM

But they're the same trope, just with one being male and one being female. That's hardly a distinction worth splitting.

Current Project: Incorruptible Pure Pureness

Rules say we abide by the common usage outside the wiki of the term when dealing with pre-existing terms so not splitting it when there's gendered terms in real life based on a "close enough" loophole would be playing Rules Lawyer with that rule.

Edited by CryptidProductions on Sep 1st 2019 at 8:01:47 AM

Have you looked what I and ElBuenCuate posted above? Examples, from outside this wiki, where the term "silver fox" is applied to women. Also, forcing a strict gender-based split excludes potential characters of Ambiguous Gender, No Biological Sex, etc. who would otherwise fit the trope (and characters like that are often portrayed attractive).

Yes.

One of them is clearly subversive and the other two are using the distaff term Silver Vixen

Edited by CryptidProductions on Sep 2nd 2019 at 3:15:08 AM

Yes, and we mentioned making Silver Vixen a redirect. There's no need for two tropes where the only difference is gender. Your entire argument boils down to popular usage, but that's irrelevant if we make a redirect for the female examples.

Current Project: Incorruptible Pure Pureness

Male, female, or whatever gender have you doesn't matter. They're old and they're attractive.

Contains 20% less fat than the leading value brand!

Gendered names on unisex tropes are also a great way to lead to misuse and confusion down the road so we just end up in TRS again, on top of everything else.

Not if there are redirects!

Nice Guy — Nice Girl.

Break His Heart to Save Him — Break Her Heart to Save Her

Cool Uncle — Cool Aunt

Cool Big Sis — Cool Big Bro

Hide Your Lesbians — Hide Your Gays

Manchild — Womanchild

Only Sane Man — Only Sane Woman

When She Smiles — When He Smiles

Y'know. Just to name a few...

Current Project: Incorruptible Pure Pureness

Is it OK to use redirects in trope lists? I remember seeing some tropers changing them to the normal name because it could mess up the alphabetization.

I think you're thinking of potholed trope names, which are banned. I can't see how a redirect would mess up alphabetization, since it's using a valid name for the trope.

Current Project: Incorruptible Pure Pureness

Of course, there's the matter of switching between redirects and/or the base name. I dunno, there are some names where I like the redirect better, such as Body Swap for "Freaky Friday" Flip and Breathing in Space for Batman Can Breathe in Space.

Contains 20% less fat than the leading value brand!

I've had that same confusion where I brought up Everyone's Baby Sister / Everyone's Baby Brother in regards to gendered names on gender neutral tropes and there was debate as to whether we should be using the distaff gender re-direct or just the default trope title of Everyone's Baby Sister

Edited by CryptidProductions on Sep 3rd 2019 at 12:08:04 PM

Gendered redirects are fine to use in trope lists; that's what they're there for.

Merging into Silver Fox has 17 yeas and 2 nays. I think it's safe to call, but mod input would be appreciated.

Edit: The amount of yeas has gone up by three.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Sep 4th 2019 at 7:12:14 AM

Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.

Correct, but that's not an argument against merging, it's an argument in favour of proposing new names. Silver Fox is common, has been applied to both genders, and is already in use on the wiki. Your job is to come up with a name which is good enough to justify changing wicks if you want it to be different.

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.

I'm going to move Grandma, What Massive Hotness You Have!'s redirects to Silver Fox and cutlist its subpages.

Which laconic works better, though: Silver Fox's or Grandma, What Massive Hotness You Have!'s?

• Grandma, What Massive Hotness You Have!: "A visibly old character who is portrayed as attractive."
• Silver Fox: "An attractive older person, often with greying hair."

I see previous discussion took place about this, but I want to double-check.

Edited by Brainulator9 on Sep 7th 2019 at 12:29:40 PM

Contains 20% less fat than the leading value brand!

I'd go for Grandma's.

she/her | TRS needs your help! | Contributor of Trope Report

Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.