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This is a thread to discuss those Administrivia pages in need of a little updating- you know the ones. The ones that still cite rules we've long since changed, or the ones that don't properly cite our current standards. Some of them are even scattered in Main/!

So, this is the place to take those pages and fix them up with the help of the community.

For a list of current projects, see Outdated Pages.

Edited by WarJay77 on Nov 21st 2020 at 8:29:04 AM

Miss_Desperado https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8YD2i1FzUYA from somewhere getting rained on by Puget Sound Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
May 7th 2020 at 12:47:43 PM

The description on Pages In Accidentally Miscapitalised Namespaces needs to be updated to reflect the newly (as in a few months ago) discovered way of fixing capitalization while preserving edit history via the mods' page-mover tool.

This is the first time I'm hearing about the page-mover tool, and I'd like to know more about it. I would presume that only mods can use it, as a precaution against Wiki Vandalism, right?

Edited by Miss_Desperado on May 7th 2020 at 12:52:34 PM

If not for this anchor I'd be dancing between the stars. At least I can try to write better vampire stories than Twilight.
WarJay77 Randomly Appearing Rubber Chicken from The Void Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
Randomly Appearing Rubber Chicken
May 7th 2020 at 12:51:51 PM

Yes, only Mods can move pages while preserving the history. They can do it if asked, but will decline if the page doesn't have a substantial enough history to bother with it.

I don't care for this method personally since the mods work hard enough and page history isn't always super relevant, but for a page with a lot of history...

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Piterpicher from Poland, for real Relationship Status: Awaiting my mail-order bride
May 7th 2020 at 12:51:58 PM

Yes, moderators have a tool that lets them move pages, and its likely not for users due to vandalism. Additionally its usage has its pros and cons:

  • Pros: Keeps page history and discussion if people care about those.
  • Cons: Deleting page history and discussion may save space and I feel like some pages with thousands of edits should have the history deleted because no-one would really want to use it as it's heavy and can crash browsers (so, I'm actually an advocate of deleting large history). Also, moving pages leave ghost wicks and other glitches.
I'm typically not an advocate of moving unless I think the discussion and history is keepworthy enough. Anyway, if people do this process for pages in miscapitalised namespaces (a project technically started by me), they may as well add it to the Sandbox/ page.

Edited by Piterpicher on May 7th 2020 at 9:56:36 PM

nombretomado Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
May 7th 2020 at 1:15:41 PM

Lately people have been bringing miscapitalized pages to the Locked Pages thread for the mod tool - not particularly robust pages either.

Honestly, if it were some other mod handling that forum thread, most of them would probably be declined, but I'm fairly anal about preserving histories, so I try to accommodate. If I had to cut something off that I did, though, it would be that.

As to the topic at hand, if anything were to get added, I'd recommend something like "If you are going to ask for a mod-move, please prioritize old pages/pages with robust histories". I'd prefer not to give the impression that it should be used for everything.

WarJay77 Randomly Appearing Rubber Chicken from The Void Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
Randomly Appearing Rubber Chicken
Piterpicher from Poland, for real Relationship Status: Awaiting my mail-order bride
May 7th 2020 at 1:24:21 PM

At the same time, I think we should start deleting and recreating manually pages with histories which are just too bloody large to browse, potentially dumping them to archive.org and providing a link to them in the edit comments/discussion page. Look at the extended history for YMMV.Pokemon Sun And Moon (though it's not a miscapitalised page) - 2097 edits, 6 megabytes. Do you really want to load all that crap for a few edits that were made years ago? Ctrl+f-ing or scrolling to find just one edit can take minutes of aggravation.

My proposal? We should allow deletion of page histories and discussions with 1000+ edits if they're saved somewhere else until histories actually get paginated. I get the want to keep them, but not if they're impractically and annoyingly huge like that. On the Sandbox/ page, maybe note that "ask for moves for pages which have 100-999 edits or 10-999 discussion posts" or something.

Edited by Piterpicher on May 7th 2020 at 10:28:14 AM

wingedcatgirl Watch that pink smoke swooce right in from The Murder-Free Hotel
Watch that pink smoke swooce right in
May 7th 2020 at 2:52:04 PM

Aren't there CC-related reasons to want to keep edit histories, no matter how old?

Or, well, strictly speaking, what we need to keep is the list of everyone who has edited any given article, but right now the edit history is serving as a proxy for that list.

Sylvi& | it/they/she | plural trans catgirl | Trouble Cube | avatar by Madame Butterfly Knife
Piterpicher from Poland, for real Relationship Status: Awaiting my mail-order bride
May 7th 2020 at 3:05:00 PM

I think Fighteer explained how Creative Commons doesn't really require us to keep history, but I don't remember where it was. That said, we have gone through several history purges (pretty much everything from before 2010 has been deleted) and besides, if we deleted pages to purge histories but kept a link to a different website with history, we'd still keep a list of people who contributed, just on another site. So this solution would, in theory, be better than what happened in the early days, and those purges back then have never given us any trouble.

WarJay77 Randomly Appearing Rubber Chicken from The Void Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
Randomly Appearing Rubber Chicken
May 7th 2020 at 8:26:31 PM

Why would we need to know which tropers edited the page, anyway, outside of a wiki-issue context?

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Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex Relationship Status: Dancing with Captain Jack Harkness
Lost in Space
May 8th 2020 at 4:38:31 AM

The CC license is for people using our content, not us using contributed content.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
May 8th 2020 at 10:58:28 AM

I brought up earlier how Missing Supertrope should be in Administrivia because it deals with a recurring issue on the wiki. Can I make the move?

RallyBot2 America Held Hostage from Nowhere Significant Relationship Status: Every rose has its thorn
America Held Hostage
May 8th 2020 at 2:44:07 PM

[up][up]Nonetheless, page history is still valuable for CC purposes, e.g. proving that something was added after the current license was in place (2012ish.)

Piterpicher from Poland, for real Relationship Status: Awaiting my mail-order bride
May 8th 2020 at 3:34:04 PM

Agreed with moving Missing Supertrope to Administrivia/ as it seems sensible and wiki-related. Seriously, RallyBot2, you had to ignore a simple question like that?

As for histories, I think this needs a separate thread which I will start myself later. Because I am pretty sure that something has to be done to pages with overly long histories (they weigh a few megabytes or more, Wiki Sandbox has a history so gargantuan it crashed a page size checker, and there is a reasonable risk for server-crashing attacks), and my solution seems sensible (it would be a good way to save space and lead to no other problem from what I can tell), but no one here is interested in searching for solutions and more talking about CC which isn't really this thread's goal, plus I think that this thread should probably stick to outdated policy pages for now as that's what it's ultimately meant for.

Edited by Piterpicher on May 8th 2020 at 12:40:04 PM

nombretomado Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
May 8th 2020 at 3:38:30 PM

[up]No need to chide people for responding to one conversation out of two going on.

WarJay77 Randomly Appearing Rubber Chicken from The Void Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
Randomly Appearing Rubber Chicken
May 8th 2020 at 3:40:24 PM

To be fair, I thought the question was directed at mods (due to seeking approval to move a page) rather than the rest of us, which is why I didn't respond after reading it personally.

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RallyBot2 America Held Hostage from Nowhere Significant Relationship Status: Every rose has its thorn
America Held Hostage
May 8th 2020 at 5:16:18 PM

Same. The Administrivia/ moves are obviously going to happen with or without my input; the page history issue is more relevant to me anyway.

Piterpicher from Poland, for real Relationship Status: Awaiting my mail-order bride
May 9th 2020 at 7:41:14 AM

Sorry if that came across as rude. I just feel like these kinds of posts lead to ignorance easily (I've been through posts like that myself, and if I don't like being treated some way, I may help others if it happens to them), and I think that addressing issues if they're fairly simple is a good way to help.

But yeah, I will make that history thread once I'm ready to do so.

WarJay77 Randomly Appearing Rubber Chicken from The Void Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
Randomly Appearing Rubber Chicken
May 10th 2020 at 3:40:58 PM

So I found another page that should be moved to Administrivia; Single-Issue Wonk.

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Piterpicher from Poland, for real Relationship Status: Awaiting my mail-order bride
May 10th 2020 at 3:46:21 PM

I disagree on that one. We may use it on people here, but it seems to describe an online problem in general (plus there's no Wiki Tropes index and a PlayingWith/ page)

Serac S̷p̷r̷i̸n̵g̶ Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
S̷p̷r̷i̸n̵g̶
May 10th 2020 at 4:35:12 PM

I just stumbled across Fo RK Badge, PLATTER Pin, and SPOON Stamp. The pages for these groups were deleted years ago and merged into The Archive of Bellicose Lexicon Entities, so should these pages be deleted too?

Edited by Serac on May 10th 2020 at 6:58:58 AM

WarJay77 Randomly Appearing Rubber Chicken from The Void Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
Randomly Appearing Rubber Chicken
May 10th 2020 at 4:40:16 PM

[up][up] Do Wiki Tropes actually count as tropes, though? Or are they just classified like that due to the outdated system, and haven't been fixed yet?

This might need a separate thread; should it be Wiki Talk or Trope Talk?

Edited by WarJay77 on May 10th 2020 at 7:42:32 AM

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Piterpicher from Poland, for real Relationship Status: Awaiting my mail-order bride
May 11th 2020 at 5:47:27 AM

For those badge pages: There's also KNIVES Crest. Either those pages should be deleted or the content merged to JustForFun.TABLE. At the very least, we should keep the images elsewhere, as those graphics are quite cool (I also dig the TWEWY reference on Platter Pin, but whatever).

As for Wiki Tropes, agreed those are an odd beast. People tend to use them as examples on pages like Wiki.Wikipedia as well (though I think using Administrivia/ pages can be used as tropes on Wiki/ articles). Some feel like actual policy pages in Administrivia/ and others like typical wiki trends in Main/, not explaining how they work on TVW. Maybe start a Wiki Talk thread if you want to, though I still feel like Single-Issue Wonk would need to detail how such people function on this site and how to deal with them.

Edited by Piterpicher on May 11th 2020 at 3:03:40 PM

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex Relationship Status: Dancing with Captain Jack Harkness
Lost in Space
May 11th 2020 at 5:51:34 AM

Just cut those extra TABLE pages. I didn't notice them in the original cleanup years ago.

Wiki Tropes is a bit of a mess. They represent patterns found in those platforms, yes, but they aren't intentional acts associated with storytelling. Wikis are not narrative structures.

Edited by Fighteer on May 11th 2020 at 8:52:43 AM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Piterpicher from Poland, for real Relationship Status: Awaiting my mail-order bride
May 11th 2020 at 6:07:24 AM

They can't be merged, huh? But the descriptions of philosophies have been effectively merged to that article... Whatever, it is admittedly a dead project and trope names aren't nearly as serious of a matter these days from what I can tell. I've saved those graphics for myself and will delete those pages and redirects shortly.

Edited by Piterpicher on May 11th 2020 at 3:08:02 PM

WarJay77 Randomly Appearing Rubber Chicken from The Void Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
Randomly Appearing Rubber Chicken
May 11th 2020 at 12:54:16 PM

Hmm...

I'll start an outside discussion about the Wiki Tropes since they seem complicated and weird.

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