Needs Help: Evil Twin

This has been talked before in Trope Talk, and now I want to see if there's something that can be done here.

Evil Twin and Evil Doppelgänger seems to be the same, content-wise, and the latter's page is apparently made years later. The other problem is that Evil Twin apparently isn't just about literal evil twins - its scope includes that of what Evil Doppelgänger covers, too.

I'd argue that the case of a twin being evil is significant because of the familial relation part, while Evil Doppelgänger doesn't have that relation.

My suggestion is to limit Evil Twin to literal twins and move other examples to Evil Doppelgänger.

Thoughts?

We can never truly eradicate the coronavirus, but we can suppress its threat like influenza

Sorry, but I can't do anything but bumping this

We can never truly eradicate the coronavirus, but we can suppress its threat like influenza

Sounds like a reasonable course of action.

My only objection would be to ask that siblings with a close enough physical appearance be considered twins for this purpose. Data and Lore from Star Trek: The Next Generation are not the same age, but Lore is definitely supposed to be an Evil Twin, not just Evil Doppelgänger. We might consider anyone of the same generation to be a downplayed example to Evil Twin (first cousins would work, but not Aunt/Niece relations).

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.

Yeah, I wouldn't disagree with maybe allowing non-twin relatives to be downplayed examples and all else go to Doppelganger.

Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness

While we are at it, Evil Doppelgänger and Evil Counterpart both talk about being used for For Want Of A Nail scenarios. Seems like an unhealthy overlap. And there are characters out there like Goku Black and Match who are listed for all four tropes Evil Doppelgänger, Evil Counterpart, Evil Knockoff and Evil Twin at the same time which should not be possible.

Right, when the trope definitions completely overlap, we should define them as subtropes, like Evil Twin should be a Sub-Trope to Evil Doppelgänger because Evil-D is a pair of characters that look physically identical, but have opposite moralities. What Evil-T adds to that is a familial relationship.

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Doppelgänger seems to be the Super-Trope for "a pair of characters that look physically identical". Evil Counterpart seems to be the Super-Trope for "a pair of characters that have opposite moralities".

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.

This means Evil Doppelgänger = Doppelganger + Evil Counterpart, right?

We can never truly eradicate the coronavirus, but we can suppress its threat like influenza

Guess so... but honestly, until now I'd thought Doppelgangers were always evil... but I guess that's a discussion for another time and place.

Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness

Would this be a correct hierarchy?

• Evil Counterpart: a character representing a darker version of someone
  • Evil Doppelgänger: Evil Counterpart + being a clone/Mirror Universe counterpart
  • Evil Twin: Evil Counterpart + being a twin/cousin
  • Evil Knockoff: Evil Counterpart + made by villain, usually to destroy the original

Edited by eroock on Jan 12th 2019 at 6:40:20 PM

Aside from my original objection, yes. I'm satisfied with that hierarchy.

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.

Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness

Looks good.

We can never truly eradicate the coronavirus, but we can suppress its threat like influenza

"It's just a show; I should really just relax"

The suggestion made in the first post was correct. Twins and doppelgängers are two separate things with distinct definitions.

Since there seems to be some agreement on the supertrope/subtrope structure laid out above, can we discuss a misalignment in the trope description of Evil Counterpart.

Currently, Evil Counterpart allows the shadow character to look like the primary character which is the definition of Evil Doppelgänger. Either we:

1. establish a definition where Evil Counterpart and Evil Doppelgänger both can look alike but there are traits a doppelganger displays that a counterpart doesn't or
2. clearly state that lookalikes are another trope altogether; this means also removing the notion Evil Counterpart could be used for For Want Of A Nail scenarios which involves another of version of yourself. This scenario is covered in the description of Evil Doppelgänger.

Opinions?

Edited by eroock on Jan 12th 2019 at 3:19:24 PM

Also, Evil Doppelgänger is defined as a Mirror Universe counterpart or a clone, not just "looks like hero".

Edited by jamespolk on Jan 12th 2019 at 7:42:41 AM

Good point. So accidental dead ringers as in Criminal Doppelgänger are excluded from Evil Doppelgänger which makes them being Evil Counterpart instead. Which could explain why the latter trope talks about similar looks. God, all these similar sounding tropes are doing my head in.

Any idea what the line "The evil doppelgänger is not to be confused with the original doppelgänger." from Evil Doppelgänger means?

Edited by eroock on Jan 12th 2019 at 6:38:21 PM

How about we follow this distinction, from Doppelgänger:

Apparently the word first appeared in the novel Siebenkas, where the doppelganger is some kind of alter ego rather than an identical clone type. But that line is very confusing and I would remove it.

"It's just a show; I should really just relax"

That distinction works, yes.

It refers to Doppelgänger; an impostor or double. Traditionally supernatural, the index covers all examples of characters that look similar. ("this index includes both mundane and supernatural impersonators of a character") The line itself doesn't seem productive. I expect it to be the result of people making pages based on the terms rather than common narrative purpose.

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Why would you suggest this? If Evil Doppelgänger is a subtrope to Evil Counterpart, then there aren't any traits that the Evil-D displays that an Evil-C doesn't. The description of Evil Doppelgänger explicitly includes someone who represents what the hero or heroes could become.

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.

Btw, after some consideration I am now able to reconcile the fact that both Evil Counterpart and Evil Doppelgänger claim to be the character equivalent of For Want Of A Nail. Evil Counterpart uses the evil persona to play out the FWOAN scenario within the same universe without the need to involve fantastic plot elements while in Evil Doppelgänger the FWOAN scenario comes about by with fantastic means (cloning or mirror universe). Does that makes sense?

Edited by eroock on Jan 12th 2019 at 9:14:57 PM

Evil Counterpart and Evil Doppelgänger don't require FWOAN. Shadow Archetype does.

We can never truly eradicate the coronavirus, but we can suppress its threat like influenza

... which is a supertrope to both tropes. "Requiring" FWOAN is probably too strong a word, it's a plot that lends itself to explore flipped character traits.

I agree; I'm fine with Shadow Archetype being the Super-Trope to Evil Counterpart (which, in turn, is Super-Trope to Evil Doppelgänger), but I don't think For Want Of A Nail is the proper trope to describe Shadow Archetype. It is a way, but not the only way.

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No; Evil Counterpart doesn't require the counterparts to have an identical appearence. A Doppelgänger can take advantage of Mistaken Identity plots. Cloning is just a way for the story to create the mistaken identity situation without worrying too much for the backstory. The Evil Doppelgänger doesn't require cloning or Mirror Universe travel.

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.