Needs Help (titles crowner 25 June 2019): Woman In White

The fact that people can actually vote again might make a difference.

Awful idea.

Could you elaborate? Do you think this is Not A Trope? Or do you think there is an alternate definition that is better?

I think the "woman wearing white is already dead metaphorically" is part of it, but there is also a purity aspect to women wearing white. The Wilkie Collins novel of the same name has aspects of both.

That would help with the Gandalf issue, though I think it would exclude some Asian examples that would then be homeless.

Should I add this option to the crowner, which is still without consensus?

I think this trope is more complex than any of the options in the crowner suggest.

I think we need to stress the contrast between motivations and past. I think the trope is supposed to have a woman who has what seems to be simple goals, but why she has those goals aren't revealed until later.

This solves the "Gandalf Problem" because the audience and characters understand his motivations almost immediately. His past before Middle-Earth is technically obscured, but it isn't relevant to his motivations. Good examples of this trope generally have a character helping her achieve her goals before learning about her past.

That does sound roughly like the Wilkie Collins novel. That one also invokes the white dress as having something otherworldly, though.

In the case of Gandalf, there is a purification aspect to his robes turning white after resurrection. It also denotes a power up for Gandalf.

So what works do we identify as the trope codifiers?

We could have a White Is Powerful or something...

Purity Power, or something?

Gold and White Are Divine?

Edited by Malady on Feb 22nd 2019 at 3:22:35 AM

, I can get behind that. White = mysterious past + death+ purity?

As I've said previously, I think the trope codifier here is the White Lady ghost legend, who is associated with all three.

I suppose the crowner was added prematurely.

What do we mean by "pure" here? Virginal?

It could be virginal, but it could also be spiritual purity.

What does "spiritual purity" mean? Does Pure Evil count?

Usually that they are innocent, child-like even, without "sinful" thoughts (religious or otherwise). Pure evil would be the exaxct opposite of that, so this would be pure good, I suppose.

I think it's more about innocence, actually. With the original ghosts, there's often a tragic backstory involving loss of innocence. These characters are rarely "purely good", and usually have some kind of conflicting motives or dark secret.

Those ideas of "innocence" don't mesh well with the ghost killing people.

I think we could have several variations on the Woman in White trope.

do you have any particular examples in mind?

I’m wondering if we need a White Means Death supertrope to cover cases where white clothing = ghost/ambiguously dead without specific implications about the characters personality

Alternately, if getting very specific is going no where, we could return to the earlier, more vague concept in the crowner, say its Always Female, and call it a day. That would still jettison a lot of the meaningless and zce examples that are bogging down the trope at the moment.

I think Woman in White as a supertrope makes more sense, with subtropes of Deadly Woman in White, White Dress of Purity, and Ghostly Woman in White as subtropes, for example.

Just chiming in...

Supertrope sounds like a great idea.

There is a TLP draft about a female ghost in a white wedding dress — if it collects enough examples, I think it would be a great subtrope.

I myself want to start a new TLP draft about a White Lady Ghost — I thought that is a specific trope in our country, but I found a page on Wikipedia and it appears to be a pretty universal concept. White Lady (ghost).

The White Lady legend is the basis for this trope, and in my opinion whatever happens to Woman In White should be based on the archetype provided by that legend. This is mentioned in Sandbox.Woman In White. So I would oppose such a draft on the grounds that we have it already.

"White dress of purity" is already a trope: Virgin in a White Dress. We need to be careful about differentiating the two.

Edit: See next post.

Edited by naturalironist on Mar 11th 2019 at 4:19:41 AM

Semi-related double post to cut down on bloat.

I think there are a lot of tropes with some overlap, here's my suggested taxonomy:

Tropes in White: Existing Index of all white symbolism. Includes the following relevant tropes that may be confused with Woman In White:

• Gold and White Are Divine: Gods & supernatural figures wear white. Due to Christian symbolism, associated with spiritual purity.
• Light Is Good: Good characters wear white. Due to Christian symbolism, associated with spiritual purity.
• Virgin in a White Dress: Virgins, young or innocent women, and spiritually pure women wear white.
• Mystical White Hair: Not a clothing trope, but has similar connotations to Woman In White imo. Laconic: "White hair indicates that the person has magical powers, has super powers, is divine, is mysterious, or has otherworldly origins."
• White Equals Death: Proposed supertrope covering death symbolism. This would include
  • Bedsheet Ghost: Ghost (or ghost costume) looks like a person covered in a sheet.
  • Blood-Splattered Wedding Dress: Blood-splattered wedding dress highlights tragedy of woman's violent death.
  • Snow Means Death: Snow symbolizes, foreshadows, or is the backdrop to death.
  • White Shirt of Death: Character wears white to foreshadow an immanent, violent death. Sister trope to Bring My Red Jacket.
  • Woman In White (might be renamed): Mysterious woman in white who is symbolically associated with death in some way. Betrayal by a man and/or loss of innocence is a common theme.^note  Current discussion is on whether this should be required or optional. Phrasing is based on my interpretation.
    • Stringy-Haired Ghost Girl: Malevolent ghost harmed by man in the past. Wears all white with a face covered in hair.
    • Yuki Onna: Japanese ghost of women who died in storms. Can be good or bad.

Edited by naturalironist on Mar 11th 2019 at 4:30:21 AM

What about women in white who are meant to mysterious/mystical/spiritual — otherworldly, but without a death connotation? What trope would cover them?

the wikipedia page

• The pilot episode of the horror/drama TV series Supernatural features a White Lady though she is referred to as a Woman in White named Constance Welch. In the episode, her husband's infidelity drives Constance insane and causes her to kill their children. After realizing what she had done, Constance took her own life. In revenge against her husband, the Woman in White seeks out men who are traveling alone on a road near her old home. As a ghost, she tries to seduce the men and if they are unfaithful, she kills them. In this episode's case, the white lady is attempting to return home but is afraid of facing the ghosts of her children whom she drowned. (See La Llorona, the inspiration for this character)
• Guild Wars 2 features a hidden quest in which the player is able to escort a Lady in White home. Upon reaching the courtyard of her home, she becomes hostile and attempts to kill the player.
• There is a White Lady parodied in Scary Movie 2, who is the wife of Hugh Kane the ghost, and upon her murder she also haunts the mansion. She kills Professor Oldman (Tim Curry), but in a comic twist she is seduced by Shorty and ends up his girlfriend.

That paragraph on the sandbox is good, but the trope I have in mind is somewhat more specific. Perhaps really a nation-specific trope...