Diversity and Representation in Media

It's odd, but Kylo Ren has overtaken the kindhearted but "safer" Finn as my favorite character after TLJ (doesn't help that it bungled Finn's character IMO), precisely because he's a horrific person and a compelling villain, hence amazing in a Love to Hate fashion, as opposed to the misunderstood Jerkass Woobie fandom presents him as. I enjoy many a good villain, and understand why he'd become so popular and would have no problem with this if only it wasn't for all the wrong reasons.

Gavin Reed from the Detroit: Become Human fandom is a more egregious example IMO, because at least Kylo Ren has some solid basis to justify his popularity. Gavin is nothing more than a loathsome background Hate Sink who's never portrayed as anything other than 100% villainous for the modicum of screentime that he receives, and only avoids being a Complete Monster because he's too Stupid Evil to do more harm.

Nevertheless he experienced a treadmill of persistent fanon woobification that turned him into one of the most popular characters overall, to the point where he rivals Connor and Hank (who actually do have the kind of depth and nuance to merit their popularity). While none of the game's other characters besides those two are written well either, at least every story-relevant non-white male character receives more depth, sympathy, or both from the narrative than Gavin, and even the other white male Hate Sink characters are at least given a decent Freudian Excuse, yet it's Gavin who receives the Draco in Leather Pants treatment for some reason.

The divisiveness around Kylo Ren is rather interesting. There are many fans that adore him and find him sympathetic and interesting. On the other hand, a lot of fans seem to think that the narrative favors him and are repulsed by the Sequel Trilogy for making a man who is the equivalent of school shooter sympathetic.

Personally, I love Kylo Ren as a villain. And I also want him to die. Those things aren't mutually exclusive. Same thing with Killmonger. Although, unlike Kylo Ren, I thought him being so much of a villain made him a weaker character.

That being said, I can't really relate to sympathizing with genocidal/murderous characters like Kylo, Thanos, and Killmonger because it's kind of, well, I don't know, gross? It's one of the problems I have with shows like Game of Thrones. Yeah, Jaime Lannister has moments of nobility and honor but I don't care. He still pushed a child out of a window.

I'd much rather feel sympathy for the characters that deserve in those stories like Finn, Gamora, T'Challa, Rey, and even Peter Quill. At the end of the day, fuck the people, er, characters who resort to murder to cope with their traumas. I just don't care or relate to it at all.

Edited by deuteragonist on Jan 11th 2019 at 5:57:29 AM

A lot of it is the way that these villains are framed by the narrative. TLJ gives more screen time to Kylo's pain than those of his victims. Kilmonger voices anger that many viewers feel. Thanos has the main Infinity War character arc, which makes him into one of the most complex villains. And the whole time they're allowed to be so much more awesome-looking than the heroes.

And the really fucked up thing is that this attitude of villain=cool sympathetic rebel that these narratives feed us bleed over into real life. There's a reason that the jail the Parkland shooter is in has been having a problem with hundreds of teenage girls sending him love letters and nudes.

This sort of attitude has been prevalent for a long time. I am again reminded of the time Ayn Rand gushed over a child murderer.

Are you fucking serious?

From my understanding as a writer, these guys are villains/antagonists, so by nature, they tend to explore or straddle lines most of us won't dare to, which creates intrigue. This very same difference in action and ideologies makes us curious to see why they're that way, why are out of the norm, and therefore invested in their "growth."

Slap on Evil Is Cool and Evil Is Sexy, and there you have it.

It's telling in my own experiences I put forth more effort in making my heroes interesting while my villains don't need as much. They sort of write themselves.

EDIT: I did a Double Take at that myself.

Edited by erazor0707 on Jan 11th 2019 at 8:35:42 AM

Honestly, what really shocked me were always so called "Fix it" stories in the Harry Potter fandom in which "independent Harry" is basically calling out the world. Because while I get the wish fulfilment of being able to change the world "for the better", they nearly always turn Harry into a little tyrant who is pushing everyone in his life around and is able to unliterally punish whoever he deems as not measuring up.

Let's just say that I really hope that most of those fanfiction writers grow up into less psychopathic beings.

All this said, fandoms are largely about wish-fulfilment, and we are ready to easier forgive fictional evil deeds than real evil deeds.

Btw, ironically Finn could be just as interesting as Kylo Ren if the movies ever bothered to get into what he did as a Stormtrooper.

Was reading the Just Here for Godzilla page, and totally forgot that Frollo from Disney's Hunchback has "fangirls".

Goodness... The same Frollo who lusts after a Romani less than half her age and wants to execute the others.

Speaking of which, this may not be the best place to ask this, but should we scrub the G-word from the Hunchback pages and replace it with Romani when applicable?

Edited by erazor0707 on Jan 11th 2019 at 9:27:05 AM

That seems appropriate; all you’d need is a note at the top that while Disney used the term gypsy, the trope pages use Roma/Romani as it is the correct language and gypsy is a slur. But that’s a topic for the trope workshop.

"Damn Purple Privilege "

Funny you said that because between two metaphorical purple guys(Willian afton of FNAF and Killgrave from Jessica jones) and now Thanos....purple man are the worst, truly.

About kylo being seen as teen, part of is is white infatilization(Quick question everyone: have you see a manchild chararter who ISNT white?) and another that Drive does REALLY look younger that it seens, is easy to see as twenty something, people have trouble with age in chararter.

Alley: it frustrate me how Kylo exist in this weird concordum of "he is a pathetic manchild that nobody take seriously...buuuuuuuut he can do a lot of damage and so take it seriously", if you compare him to Killmonger(the closet thing we will ever have to a african american sith), who is douchy and really awfull, the movie respect him as villian to some extent....granted, he have better reason that kylo, so maybe that it.

" Finn, Gamora, T'Challa, Rey, and even Peter Quill."

Maybe because they are hero and the story molded in a very easy "hero who do good thing because they are good people as we expect good hero to be ", even when in tchalla case, he decide to go ina man hunt in another country, almost risking to reveling is identity as Black panther and got into a fight he didnt belong because is father was dead....not much diferent from Eric in fact, you could said T´challa is very privilage in that way.

In the same token, Finn background as imperial amount to nothing in general aside of being afraid of first order and Gamora is a stright out hero even when she was rise by thannos(and as far I get, she is not much better than drax and rocket in the comics).

@Galadriel: So a day late, but just to note that I didn't mean from perspective of "People need a job to live" I meant "Society looks down on people who don't have jobs unless [x]" And that does include even rich people as far as I know

It wasn't a moral or ethical judgment, just a comment that society pushes everyone to go to on work life or on retirement.

Edited by SpookyMask on Jan 12th 2019 at 1:29:10 PM

Personally I don't find Kylo Ren to be particularly "complex" or "interesting." There's a lot of TELLING how he's so deep and interesting, but not really for me. Part of it comes down to a lack of context about, well a lot of things about him, and the second is that the films cannot seem to fully make up their minds about what he's supposed to be.

Also the victim blaming going on with the older characters doesn't help either.

By contrast, Killmonger IS interesting and maybe a tad bit sympathetic even. He's definitely a terrible person who needs to be stopped, so I'm not ROOTING for him to be sure. But I get how he got that way, why he's so angry and bitter and hateful, and he does make some decent points at times. There's a certain tragedy to his character, and also I actually know what he wants.

Thanos is, somewhere in the middle of those imo. Honestly I think that Vulture is a more sympathetic/nuanced Marvel baddie than Thanos is.

Netflix is ordering a series based on Leigh Bardugo's Grishaverse novels.

I haven't read the Shadow and Bone novels, but I have read the Six of Crows duology and they're awesome and awesomely diverse. I have hope for the series since Bardugo is serving as executive producer, and not only has said in the past that she wouldn't allow whitewashing in her work, but has recently stated in her subscription newsletter that they're going to diversify the Shadow and Bone cast for the screen.

Speaking of Killmonger, it kinda disappointed me that he got killed off.

It would have been cool seeing him end up meeting Steve Rogers.

“There's a lot of TELLING how he's so deep and interesting”

Same.

Yeah, I wouldn’t put Killmonger in the same category as Kylo Ren or Thanos. (Infinity War tries to treat Thanos like he’s somewhat sympathetic, which drives me nuts because he isn’t and shouldn’t be regarded as such.)

Killmonger actually has some legitimate points - which the movie recognizes; it’s his methods that are messed up.

Edited by Galadriel on Jan 12th 2019 at 10:21:56 AM

Frankly, I don't care about Star Wars one way or another. Outside of "The Empire strikes back" the movies suffer constantly under badly written characters.

It is kind of sad to say this, but it really is refreshing to see a person on the internet that doesn’t care about Star Wars. It is exhausting to talk about these days.

Anyway, this is why I am glad that characters like Prince Zuko and Angel exist. These are two redemption/atonement stories that I can get behind. Zuko because he truly is a good person at heart that just makes mistakes and Angel because he is not really responsible for the atrocities he committed as the villain.

Honestly, Zuko is the Kylo Ren that KR supporters think that Kylo is. But Zuko is not a genocidal Psychopathic Man Child, he is just a broken abused kid.

Which is why Nakia exists. She basically makes all the same points as Killmonger, but without the murder and attempted genocide.

Exactly. God, I love this movie so much.

Yes, Nakia’s easily my favourite character in the movie.

Edited by Galadriel on Jan 12th 2019 at 11:11:11 AM

If the sequel turns her into Malice it would straight up break my heart. I love her so, so much.

They’d better not! I hope Marvel has more sense than that.

Yeah, Nakia is pretty awesome and underrated in my opinion. Honestly, there are very few movies where I love all of the main characters as I do with Black Panther.

That being said, I started to see a lot of criticisms that the movie was overrated. For the record, I'm talking genuine criticisms, not just You Tube and Reddit commenters. I mean, BP will never be overrated for me just off of principle alone but from an objective POV, it does make me wonder.