IMO there should be a a more general the general 'kids just do everything because plot and demographics demand it' trope with subtropes covering
- There Are No Adults
- Kid main character(s) taking the jobs of an adult so the intended audience can relate like Child Solder ie MobileSuitGundam or becoming a teacher.
- Adults Are Oblivious, I think this should be above Parental Obliviousness
- 'Adults tried something but its useless, its up to the kids to do it!' connected to The Worf Effect a connected trope might be Student Organized Action
- Adults literally can not do anything because of some special power. IE Persona 3
- Adults just stand and watch because in their opinion it's best if the kids to do it and push them to achieve as a learning experience'
Also the examples are a mess of 'averted' 'zigzagged' and 'played straight'. And IMO the limit should on age should be high school or below, there are some 20+ people listed here.
edited 20th Sep '14 11:20:46 AM by Memers
Regarding age, I am inclined to not include anybody above 18; that's stretching the trope too much. 14 to 18 is murky, because of societal standards varying in various settings; I'd be inclined to count these unless the setting makes it clear that the difference wouldn't matter.
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No, the other one.
I've always seen it as being about how since the kids are the main characters, they're the ones who have to solve the problem, and adults would (normally) be able to solve the plot too effectively for there to be much of a story left, so they're ignored as far as providing a solution goes. The adults are just there to provide conflict, not solve it.
I'm not sure cases where the adults try, but aren't successful are the same trope. Nor when only the kids have superpowers, or there's a masquerade. Those still show the adults participating in the solution, or are shown to be realistically incapable of solving it. Some of those cases are probably just about the Competence Zone.
I wouldn't include anyone over 16 as being a kid here, unless it's a situation with a clear division between kids and adults. To take one example, a school with a powerful student council would probably not count, since then the students are integrated in the authority of adults, and are explicitly expected to act like and for adults to a degree. As far as the story is concerned, they're young adults.
edited 20th Sep '14 8:19:35 PM by AnotherDuck
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Not all student councils are powerful, there are quite a few that are like real life aka have no real power and are considered kids by the faculty.
Manabi Straight comes to mind, the student council has no power and is considered a complete joke by the principal, teachers and students, and has quite a few moments of the 'adults are hands off so the kids need to learn' Aesop and 'adults failed but kids succeed' version.
No, the other one.
And then it's not "a school with a powerful student council" and as such doesn't fit my example.
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Ok, then since we agree that it needs work, here are the suggestions I'd make:
- Remove the chunk of description about the adults being abusive. Move those examples to Abusive Parents, which includes not only actual abuse by the actual parent, but also the parent allowing abuse by someone else. If they aren't Abusive Parents, determine whether they fit in one of the other Abuse Tropes and move them there.
- Remove the chunk of description that includes "no adults being present at all". Move those examples to the appropriate trope from the Orphaned Index or another appropriate trope.
- Cull out any examples where the youngsters are not the main protagonists of the work.
- Cull out any examples where the "youngsters" are older than their late teens. 18 tops, 16 would be better.
- Cull out the examples where the adults genuinely try to solve the problem, but fail.
edited 20th Sep '14 5:24:23 PM by Madrugada
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No, the other one.
The first sounds good to me, with the caveat on the first point that we need to make sure they don't also fit the trope while being abusive. The tropes aren't mutually exclusive.
The second is basically just that if no adults are around, there are no adults around to be useless. Trope just doesn't apply.
The third I'd probably say is about the protagonists of the current story, so even if it's a side story in a larger work where the main characters are adults, if it fits within that side story, it still fits.
I think I've said my take on the age thing. Character aged 16 are sometimes treated as adults in some circumstances (allowed to drive in some places, for instance), so it depends on the story. Legally adult characters, however, no matter what the legal age is in that particular story, is a different matter.
For trying to solve the problem, it would also include acknowledging if they actually cannot solve it. Many social problems can't be solved by an outsider, and superpowers is a whole different coin.
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What's wrong with examples of that last type? Seems a legit use to me, when kids succeed where adults fail.
No, the other one.
That's Competence Zone. It also shows the adults being on the side of the protagonists, rather than as antagonists or neutrals. I find that distinction rather important.
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Addressing @7 one-by-one:
- Concurring. Abusive Parents are their own trope.
- Concurring. No Adults At All is its own trope.
- Definitively no. The trope does reflect problem-solving ability, not story role.
- Inclined to say no. I can see situations where 16-18 could be lumped into the "adult" class but nothing in the media I have seen makes me think it's very common.
- Inclined to agree; Competence Zone looks like a better trope there.
I'm not seeing the reason to exclude adults on the same side as the protagonists...?
No, the other one.
It means they're fighting on the same team, but aren't as effective because they're out of the Competence Zone. Which is why it belongs in that trope. It's not specifically about adults then, but about people outside the Competence Zone who happen to be adults.
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Clock is set.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Political ends as sad remains will die
I agree that that should be done. That and the cleanup of examples of Abusive Parents.
We already have that trope as There Are No Adults.
Bully in the Alley
Perhaps paragraphs 7, 8, and 9 could be moved to the Adults Are Useless page instead. There's a little too much there to go on the Playing With page and some of it brings up some interesting points that would go well in an analysis section.
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Re-clocking.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Clock is up with no progress; closing this.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
This came up because the page image was brought up for discussion.
The trope definition is "In works with young (child or young teen) protagonists, adults who could or should take action do not, because if they did, the kids would be marginalized or even completely unecesssary to the solution of the problem or situation the plot revolves around."
It's been watered down with paragraph on paragraph of "Or <this>, or <that>, or <this other thing>, or <that other, other thing> to the point that it's "any adult that isn't the one who solves the situation."
It badly needs a clarification if the definition and to have all the rest of the stuff pruned out.
For the record, here's what the definition started out as, May 1, 2007:
Usually, this is just plot necessity (especially on comedy shows). After all, Parker Lewis Ferris Bueller {note: now "High-School Hustler"} could hardly get anything done if the teachers kept their eyes open, and if the parents were vigilant, being told that You Are Grounded! would wreck the plot.
But on a handful of drama shows, there's a real venom to it. Radio Free Roscoe is about a group of heroic teens who defy a tyrannical school administration. On a smaller scale, Degrassi: The Next Generation has episodes where it is implied that stealing school property is no big deal, but it's disgraceful to inform on the thief.
Shows where Adults Are Useless can also be shows where you Can't Get Away with Nuthin' — kids who break school rules somehow always get caught, but due to bad luck, not because a teacher was alert.
See also: Competence Zone, Parent Ex Machina
Nothing about abusive parents, nothing about using it to teach the Aesop that in the real world adults can't always solve everything or can't always protect kids, nothing about the protagonists refusing to ask for help from the adults, nothing about it being Poor Communication Kills where the adults would help if they understood why it's a problem for the kids.
Further history, courtesy of the Wayback Machine:
July, 2007, this was added:
A subtrope of this is Parental Obliviousness.
See also: Competence Zone, Parent ex Machina. For an inversion, see Teens Are Monsters.
By April 18, 2008, this had been added:
By August 14, 2010, it had gained this:
June 7, 2011:
Another seldom-used aspect of this trope sort of plays off the above. In this version, it's not that Adults are useless; quite the opposite. The problem is that the protagonists-because of youthful embarrassment, a need to prove themselves or simple ego- can't ask for help, or accept it when it's given. The message here is that asking for help is a good thing (one can't do everything alone) and not bothering to trust people with more skill/experience ultimately causes more trouble than it's worth. This version is also Truth in Television, but you'll not find many young people who are willing to admit that.
September 2012:
By October 30, 2013,it had become this;
Another seldom-used aspect of this trope sort of plays off the above. In this version, it's not that Adults are useless; quite the opposite. The problem is that the protagonists — because of youthful embarrassment, a need to prove themselves or simple ego — can't ask for help, or accept it when it's given. The message here is that asking for help is a good thing (one can't do everything alone) and not bothering to trust people with more skill/experience ultimately causes more trouble than it's worth. This version is also Truth in Television, but you'll not find many young people who are willing to admit that.
Another more mature variant of the trope (and one that is also unfortunately Truth in Television) is that the adults are abusive and other adults around cover for the abuse or justify it and/or the abusers. While in many settings there's someone the child could eventually find for help, in some (small towns in The Fifties, before the internet, fundamentalist religious societies) there isn't or the children don't know/can't find the actually supportive adults and/or can't identify their treatment as abuse.
Sometimes it may even be a simple case of Poor Communication Kills - sometimes the adults seem worthless because they aren't seeing it from the characters' point of view. Or a combination of the above where the kids simply don't tell the adults so they don't know.
I can't find any indication that any of these changes to the fundamental definition were ever discussed. If they were, it was in a forum thread that is no longer available.
edited 20th Sep '14 9:47:44 AM by Madrugada
...if you don’t love you’re dead, and if you do, they’ll kill you for it.