Should LGBT issues created by FanDumb be labled as FanDumb?

Okay this is a question I came across while having an argument with a fellow troper about stuff in the YMMV page of Attack on Titan.

First let me explain how it started:

Fellow troper harostar was having a hard time dealing with an issue that was apparently created via Fan Dumb, somewhat of the Theocrat variant. As detailed in the discussion page of the characters section, the author of the manga joked that a certain character was gender ambiguous due to an interviewer having Viewer Gender Confusion. It was an obvious joke as the author is kinda of a troll. Certain Fans however took it too seriously and kept using English gender neutral pronouns such as "They" for the character. This was a case of Fan Dumb as the character in question was clearly a female due to an obvious bustline. Some Fans however justified continuing using the English gender neutral pronouns on the basis that the character was probably a transgender person since there were gay characters around. They also justified this due to the Japanese gender neutral pronouns being used for her which would mean her gender is being concealed. After some research, it was found out that the case was indeed a case of Fan Dumb mostly due to the Japanese gender neutral pronouns used for her were a speaking style used in the manga for more than one character and not a gender concealment issue.

Now this is where the basis of topic of this discussion comes up:

Due to the YMMV of the character issue, it was put in the YMMV page. Since it looked like its should be labeled Fan Dumb, I placed it appropriately in a Fan Dumb entry.

Fellow troper probablyinsane however took this out, as dictated in the discussion page of the YMMV page, due to two reasons:

1. It annoyed him that it was the first thing to be placed as Fan Dumb entry for Attack On Titan when there were more Fan Dumb worthy topics like the main female protagonist being drawn shorter than the main male protagonist in Fanart.
2. He thought that what was written would be offensive to the LGBT movement as it was being labeled Fan Dumb and would be offensive to fans who want a positive transgender character even though said character is only a transgender via Fan Dumb.

We've argued about the subject over Private Messages. I even tried rewriting my original post so that it would be less offensive as possible. However due to misunderstandings and tempers rising, progress on the issue was severely halted and civility between the two of us was unfortunately destroyed. I pretty much decided to wash my hands on that specific matter.

Now here is the question of the Topic at hand:

Should LGBT issues created by Fan Dumb be labled as Fan Dumb? If it was a case of Ho Ya Y, I guess the answer is obviously that it shouldn't be labeled as Fan Dumb. But what if it was a genuine case of Fan Dumb? Like a number of fans interpreting a character as being LGBT based on an misunderstanding of the joke of a known troll author. A misunderstanding made from how Japanese pronouns work. A misunderstanding made from the fallacy that Gay characters automatically mean that Trans characters should exist.

I'm just asking this as it seems that anything related to LGBT, as presented by probablyinsane, should be treated as a Sacred Cow even on a YMMV page. It can't be labeled as Fan Dumb as it is offensive to people who perceive a character as LGBT even though it was through misunderstanding rather than genuine LGBT suggesting In-Universe situations. You can't say "people mistaking a character as transgender via misinterpretation of a joke" is Fan Dumb as it insults the people making the mistake is what I got from probablyinsane. I also got that calling it Fan Dumb is also insulting to the fans of the genuine gay characters. I guess that is true but seriously, calling one LGBT Fan Dumb since it was made from genuine Fan Dumb is going to be instantly offensive to every LGBT fan.

It feels almost like a case of Double Standard. A LGBT Fan Dumb entry can't be labeled as Fan Dumb in a YMMV page due it looking offensive to the LGBT community. I've seen more offensive entries being allowed on other YMMV pages like Twilight, which are by the way mostly dominated by Twilight bashing entries.

I'm just asking this question as presented in the topic as I don't know if it was addressed before, or where to look if it was indeed addressed. In any case, I'm sorry if this was a waste of time but I personally felt it should be addressed to the Tv Tropes community since it left a bitter feeling for me.

Edit:

• http://inksplotched.tumblr.com/post/53894562887/on-misgendering-hanji-zoe
• http://papermoon2.tumblr.com/post/52716450297/five-eta-four-sorry-of-the-main-characters
• http://shingeki-kyojin.livejournal.com/2673.html

Three posts from people who have a better understanding of the related subject.

edited 30th Jun '13 10:55:48 AM by Elfkaiser

The history of that page makes it look like you were having an edit war with yourself.

Jokes aside, what you're describing probably applies. We don't normally make special exceptions for special groups, LBGT or otherwise as it is YMMV. Provided it's phrased inoffensively, you're fine.

However, you didn't really explain the context (that he's a Trolling Creator) in your entry, which is probably the main issue. If you add that context, it should be good to go. (That, and you drop using triple bullet points, which is a no-no in editing.)

The page was recently moved so the history is in two places. It looked like an edit war with just myself as probablyinsane didn't seem to care what was written there after removing the Fan Dumb entry. He made a discussion, expressed his annoyance, and somewhat demanded it should be changed. Other than that, he did not seem to do anything to help make it less offensive. No suggestions and no edits other than removal. He didn't even seem interested whether what I was rewriting was acceptable. He just kept saying it was wrong because it was offensive to LGBT. I just kept asking why and he just apparently kept ignoring the problem.

I kinda thought what I wrote was not offensive and the revisions I made were even less offensive. However the constant Private Messages from a troper not willing to at least overlook what I wrote made me feel I was offensive regardless of what I wrote. Asking them to be my editor maybe too much I guess, but they were the one complaining in the first place so some responsibility would be appreciated.

The suggestion of adding context that the creator is a Trolling Creator is something that I really appreciate. It's something that I didn't get any help from while editing.

I appreciate the response.

^Probably because it was never clear to probablyinsane. (Obviously I'm not privy to your P Ms or have even read any version of your entry or even seen whether the creator is listed as a Trolling Creator anywhere, but the point stands: an ounce of context is worth a pound of rephrasing and defending.)

I don't think you really have a leg to stand on in regards to the Fan Dumb issue: what you've said is that 'This was a case of Fan Dumb as the character in question was clearly a female due to an obvious bustline', but since physical traits and gender do not necessarily align, you can't actually argue that Zoë is, in fact, female.

The awkward thing is that most characters in the series are referred to by gender-neutral pronouns, and the subject is never really brought up within the series, making it far more likely that it was a one-off joke by a Trolling Creator than actual canon. Particularly since the author is known for his rather... unusual sense of humour.

edited 22nd Jun '13 4:26:27 AM by Iaculus

I feel that this is going to be a slippery slope. Where do you draw the line? When does "Ambigiously Gay" become opaque enough to become "Fan Dumb"? What about posters with Neo Con or Radical Left politics? They're certainly doing to strongly disagree with each other over issues and likely to decry those who don't agree with them as examples of Fan Dumb — hell, that's already been seen on this wiki.

It's leading to trouble to start policing boundaries like this, particularly when associated with groups who've had an history of friction with authoritative taxonomy.

I feel that Fan Dumb is one of those things that should fall afoul of Rule Of Cautious Editing Judgement more often than not. After all, the cardinal rule of the wiki is that we aren't here to pick fights, and if simply documenting an instance of fans being idiots is likely to cause hurt feelings and arguments, it's probably best to leave off.

-> I feel that this is going to be a slippery slope. Where do you draw the line? When does "Ambigiously Gay" become opaque enough to become "Fan Dumb"? What about posters with Neo Con or Radical Left politics? They're certainly doing to strongly disagree with each other over issues and likely to decry those who don't agree with them as examples of Fan Dumb — hell, that's already been seen on this wiki.

The line I think can be obviously drawn whether or not an LGBT issue shows genuine signs of being Fan Dumb. A character listed as Ambiguously Gay due to effeminate mannerisms shown or otherwise would not be listed as Fan Dumb due to the trope description of what Ambiguously Gay is. A character listed as Ambiguously Gay due to a fan misinterpreting a very minor detail like wearing a pink hat despite said character only wore said pink hat one time, could be considered Fan Dumb especially if fans insist that character is Ambiguously Gay based solely on that hat.

As for posters with Neo Con or Radical Left politics, I don't know what to say except that's maybe blowing things out of proportion. I don't know, the discussion is not a political debate though it deals with LGBT issues that are genuinely Fan Dumb created by completely misunderstanding things like jokes from a Trolling Creator rather than issues created by LGBT goggles.

-> I feel that Fan Dumb is one of those things that should fall afoul of Rule of Cautious Editing Judgement more often than not. After all, the cardinal rule of the wiki is that we aren't here to pick fights, and if simply documenting an instance of fans being idiots is likely to cause hurt feelings and arguments, it's probably best to leave off.

Problem is, some of these fans are kinda breaking the rule, if not forcing people to break it, due to them not understanding this situation more properly. These fans were constantly changing pronouns like the wazoo based on a misunderstanding that unfortunately involves an LGBT issue. Some of them I guess were genuine people misunderstanding and changing what they believe to be the truth, however some of them were changing pronouns so frequently that they've caused edit wars. They're still doing it now I believe based on the history of the characters' page. It came to a point where vetoing the use of gender specific pronouns completely was considered as solution to this. Yes, completely not use gender specific pronouns for a single character even when such pronouns would make a more proper english sentence and not something the Hulk would speak.

Listing it as Fan Dumb would at probably enlighten some people to the problem and hopefully not make the same mistake again. Besides the main issue of the Fan Dumb entry is not an LGBT issue which would hurt people, it's about people getting suckered by a Trolling Creator into making a problem which involves a LGBT issue.

edited 22nd Jun '13 7:11:34 PM by Elfkaiser

I personally think that we can leave that entry alone. Not only does it not really sound offensive, removing a YMMV item because you disagree with it is not really OK.

To be honest, listing this as Fan Dumb is kind of insulting in the first place. I can understand why people would want to make a record of this, but why do it in a way that offends others? There's already a reference to the issue under Broken Base, so maybe moving it all there would be a good solution.

I don't know how clear I can make this: this is not an issue of Fan Dumb, because Isayama, Trolling Creator or no, has not given Zoe's gender. Therefore Zoe could be female, male, or non-binary; we just don't know. It's not a misunderstanding, it's not fans being dumb, because we seriously don't know. Until Isayama confirms Zoe's gender, we still won't know.

Also, Elfkaiser: using gender neutral pronouns isn't as awful an idea you seem to make it out as. It won't make grammatical constructions into 'something that the Hulk would speak' because the whole point is that they should make sense in the same context as gender specific pronouns.

@ Missa Lacrimosa

Don't know if you're taking note of this discussion and the other one at the YMMV, or just this one.

There's currently no reference about it in the Broken Base section anymore. Also it somewhat seems less of a Broken Base and more of a Fan Dumb entry as it's a mistake that fans who only read the interview and don't know that Isayama's a Trolling Creator would have. It's not something that I believe fans would argue about amongst themselves like whether or not Mikasa's abs are hot or whether things should be spelled one way or another. True fans are arguing about it so it could get a reference in the Brokenbase but the fact remains that it is primarily Fan Dumb.

Isayama has actually given the closest thing that can be described as a confirmation of what Hange's gender is. He gave it in a fake preview◊ that he did. The preview says it's about a girl in love with a Titan. True, it's a joke like the whole Shrugof God thing he gave. However, why would he call Hange in a girl in the first place. Is it for parody's sake or is it because that Isayama has decided that Hange's a girl? Is it really needed for Isayama to devote a few panels and outright state in the manga what the gender this character has? Sure, there maybe a situation in the future where this might be handled like putting Hange in a dress like in the fake preview or something, however those could be taken as simple crossdressing or being gay if people insist that such situations are not proof rather than an outright statement of what her gender is.

Also while Isayama's manga may have Viewer Gender Confusion especially in the earlier chapters, the anime makes more effort to avoid confusion. Check this chart sheet◊. All of the girls can be identified as girls due to an obvious physical trait. It's clear who's a girl and who's not. If you are going to say that Hange can be a Third Option to the gender spectrum based on the notion that physical traits do not necessarily equal gender then that would apply to all of the girls besides Hange.

While they would indeed make sense in the same context of gender specific pronouns, the problem is when they are used in situations where they are oddly placed. Take this for example:

"She weeps hysterically while having to experiment on them and is devastated when they're killed by Annie."

Change to gender neutral pronouns.

"They weeps hysterically while having to experiment on them and is devastated when they're killed by Annie."

Who's they referring to in that sentence?

Also by Hulk speak, I mean by replacing every situation a pronoun can be used with her name. Using a gender specific pronoun in light of these fans makes them want to change to gender neutral pronouns. The only other solution to that other than trying to point out that Isayama is a Trolling Creator or rewriting the sentence so that it doesn't have gender specific pronouns, is to make every pronoun that refers to Hange into Hange's name. Grammatically it seems weird to an extent and kinda forces writers to used to writing normally with pronouns to adapt a special case just for Hange even when said case is Fan Dumb.

You know based on what you've replied, I'm getting that there's some misunderstanding of what the trope Fan Dumb means. Fan Dumb while it has the words Fan and Dumb, doesn't necessarily mean outright that Fans who believe in such notions are dumb. From what is written in the trope page of Fan Dumb, it can refer to fans who are overzealous in an idea despite evidence for the contrary. It can mean fans who argue about a Humongous Mecha movie ripping off anime despite it being a homage. It can mean fans who want their Fan-Preferred Couple to be real regardless of evidence rather than the official one. It can also mean fans who want to justify a Trolling Creator's joke no matter what despite the evidence for the contrary starring them right in the face.

In any case, somebody's modified my Fanumb entry to a supposedly less offensive one. It summarizes and conveys what I've originally stated so I'll defend that.

What I will fight against however will be that people are crying out that this Fan Dumb entry is offensive to the LGBT movement or offensive to fans who want a positive transgender character even when nothing other than that stupid interview supports it. Seriously, it's about some fans who took a joke too seriously and insist that it's truth. If it's offensive to those fans and people don't want it there so not to offend them then that's just being guilty of treating the entire situation as some sort of Sacred Cow rather than what it is.

edited 24th Jun '13 7:00:58 PM by Elfkaiser

Okay, I think this is getting a bit out of hand now. Given that the trope page for Fan Dumb does itself say that the fans labelled as such are 'the rabid dogs that need putting down' within the fandom, I'm still not comfortable with the labelling of this issue of Fan Dumb, but in the interests of not duking it out online (unless you'd like to meet me for a duel at high noon, Elfkaiser?) I'll leave it there for now. It could be said that nothing except for your interpretation supports the fact that Zoe identifies as female (no, sex and gender are not necessarily the same thing), but that's an argument for another time.

Anyway, I've edited the entry a bit so it sounds less like it's implying that the fans who do interpret Zoe as non-binary or gender neutral are, indeed, rabid dogs. In regards to the gender neutral pronoun issue: 'they' is a little clunky, grammatically, but there are other pronouns such as xe that can be used. As little known as 'xe' might be outside of certain circles, people aren't going to become more familiar with it unless its usage increases.

@ Missa Lacrimosa

While I guess it is true that sex and gender are different things, I really don't think that differentiating the words in this case is ideal. At the very least, it confuses the issue between people as what's being discussed in context is her gender, as in the term referring to biological sex, and not her gender identity, as in the term which a person identifies themselves.

As for 'xe', maybe a good substitute along with the other Invented pronouns that I just read now about, but it's usage here doesn't seem to apply as nothing in the manga suggests that Hange may identify herself as being outside the two gender spectrum.

As for labeling this as Fan Dumb, I guess it's only natural that some people would be uncomfortable. However, it is in a YMMV page. If there was a more appropriate less offensive label though, I'd welcome it. Unfortunately, it doesn't fall anywhere else.

I'd say this though based on the discussion, this is the point that I've started this Wiki Talk forum in the first place. People are mixing this whole issue with their own personal views on LGBT because it involves an LGBT issue created from genuine misunderstanding.

Edit:

Though in terms of the definition of gender I should correct myself and say that what is "mostly" being discussed is her appearance rather than a fan theory of her personal opinion on what she might want to identify herself as. Or something like that. At any case, it seems that both sex and gender could be synonymous for what is known about Hange.

edited 25th Jun '13 7:36:34 AM by Elfkaiser

• http://inksplotched.tumblr.com/post/53894562887/on-misgendering-hanji-zoe
• http://papermoon2.tumblr.com/post/52716450297/five-eta-four-sorry-of-the-main-characters
• http://shingeki-kyojin.livejournal.com/2673.html

Three posts from people who have a better understanding of the related subject.

edited 30th Jun '13 10:56:00 AM by Elfkaiser

I tend to agree with Fighteer; the rule of cautious editing judgment should apply to Fan Dumb, which means that if someone seriously disputes your example, it's gone, fullstop. No matter how obvious it is to you, calling sections of the fanbase rabid dogs that need to be put down is something that shouldn't be done where there's significant arguments. If a proposed example of Fan Dumb is controversial enough to hit the forums, we probably should not be listing it as an example.

(Of course, I honestly don't think that we should list examples for Fan Dumb at all, so I might be the wrong person to ask. What's the point? It feels like it mostly exists to let groups of fans snipe at each other.)

Additionally, something else to remember: Just because they're 'wrong' about the character's gender does not mean they're part of the Fan Dumb. The key part of Fan Dumb is not "they're wrong about this!" The key part is "they have completely lost all perspective about this." It's about people who no longer understand the MST3K Mantra. I'd argue that because of that, the people posting long, impassioned arguments about either side of this debate are part of the Fan Dumb, because they've clearly lost perspective if they care this strongly about how people interpret a character's gender. If it deeply bothers you that some people are interpreting Zoë as male, and you feel it's necessary to go out and confront them to correct them, then you're part of the Fan Dumb too.

edited 2nd Sep '13 1:13:34 PM by Aquillion

Not to be too off-topic, but I'm not sure what purpose this necro serves, and you might want to think a bit more carefully before bringing up months-old issues that have been basically resolved for nearly that long. Just saying.

I was gonna say... this looked very much like a necro to me. Locking.