RWBY General Discussion

Well, not to be morbid but...

I assume they'll find a way.

Edited by Soble on Sep 13th 2019 at 4:08:08 AM

I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!

He did say the door was left open for him to return, and leaving RT isn't a barrier to voicing roles (for example both Weiss and Blake's voice actresses left RT after RWBY started but obviously still voice the characters).

If I had to guess he left over the crunch time controversy.

Gray tweet about leaving RT.

[1]

And RTX RWBY Panel [2]

Yow. Wasn't he a big part of the animation team? At least it sounds like this is more Turney than Zuelch, but it also sounds like it was more Turney than Zech.

My posts make considerably more sense read in the voice of John Ratzenberger.

He was the head of It, but was stood down after the crunch time controversy. I imagine he left shortly afterwards to peruse other opportunities. That said he might come back if GEN:LOCK gets a season 2.

Well, I got the name of one of the people laid off, albeit he doesn't have any involvement with RWBY. Nick Cramer aka Nervous Nick, formerly of Screwattack, known for hosting Top 10. And while I may disagree with a lot of his later Top 10's due to his Bias Steamroller and letting a joke derail a list, still sucks to hear he was one of the 13 percent/50 people.

Honestly, it feels like Rooster Teeth is slowly dying. A lot of the things I like in RT are either gone or suck. RWBY Chibi seems to be canned, same for Nomad of Nowhere. DEATH BATTLE! is crap, and DBX is just Death Battle Lite. Doesn't seem we're ever gonna get Twelve Little Roosters.

So far only four things are left for me from RT.

• RWBY, and I'm taking that on a Volume by Volume case.
• Camp Camp
• Red Vs Blue, and even that is hit or missed
• gen:LOCK

And with the animation studio controversy, and now the employee layoff, I'll be treating all four of them with trepidation.

Edited by RebelFalcon on Sep 14th 2019 at 2:29:35 PM

Vegeta: I'm back bitches!

I don't like a lot of their stuff. RWBY and RVB are the only two I like. Don't care for their business or most of their VIP.

That said RT is far from dying. Your interest in it probably is.

Edited by Soble on Sep 14th 2019 at 11:38:20 AM

I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!

With Gray Haddock having left and the sheer cost of the talent, I’m pretty sure gen:Lock is done.

Oh no! I'll never know what happens to... um... gen:Lock never actually made me care about the characters. I wouldn't cry to see it gone.

Back to RWBY though, I doubt it will be affected in any noticeable manner. It is Rooster Teeth's most valuable property and one they will not neglect if they can help it in any way.

Apathy is Death. Worse than Death, because at least a rotting corpse feeds beasts and insects.

With gen:Lock, I at least grew to like the main cast, Migas, and Leon. Only one I was meh on was Chase.

Yeah, RWBY is their flagship, but considering this is the company that has managed to screw the pooch and fucked up Volume 5 royally with what should've been easy to not screw up^* Show some actual training, do some character development and interactions between characters who don't normally interact much, Show, Don't Tell I think you'll understand why I'm a little nervous. Hell, Volume 6 was mainly damage control by correction what they failed at, and even then they overcorrected with Ruby and turned her into the Stock Shōnen Hero, neglected Oscar entirely, and gave us Cordovin and the Argus Arc.

They could continue to do better and improve where they failed, but they could just as easily crash and burn.

Vegeta: I'm back bitches!

Eh I could say the same about the 1st season of RWBY.

A rather dull 1st season is not much of a strike really.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."

Regarding RWBY: While Volume 7 can be a failure in many different ways, I don't think it will be made considerably worse by financial or management issues. If anything, Volume 5 goes to prove my point in that regard; Nothing about RT's situation back then implied they would make such a mess of a product, and yet they did and ended up with a season that is more widely disliked than the early low-budget, low-experience Volumes. The reverse should also hold true. The worst that can happen due to layoffs would be shorter fights or some technical issues along the way, but most people would be willing to forgive that if the characters are handled accordingly to their liking, I think.

Regarding genLock: I am only speaking my personal feelings here. It can be easily argued that the first season of gen:Lock was objectively^* As much as anything can be "objectively" good better than Volume 1 of RWBY, but I enjoyed the latter far more. At the very least, RWBY made me care about characters almost immediately from the start. With gen:Lock, I legitimately struggle to list the main characters' names now that few months have passed.

Apathy is Death. Worse than Death, because at least a rotting corpse feeds beasts and insects.

Heh its funny cause I find that hard to believe.

Edited by slimcoder on Sep 14th 2019 at 2:23:06 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."

Since there is no way I can prove myself honest, you will have to go on believing I deceived you for absolutely no gain.

Apathy is Death. Worse than Death, because at least a rotting corpse feeds beasts and insects.

I haven't had a chance to post here for a while, so I just wanted to answer some things that were sent in my direction, and some things that interested me.

And I really don't want to join in discussions about corporations I can't possibly have first-hand information about.

Stalling is a legitimate plan.

Bear in mind that I've always argued that Ozpin's engaged in a stalemate strategy against Salem. The show has given us indications that Ozpin does plan for both unity and to stop Salem obtaining the Relics.

For example: building the schools, creating a form of government that makes kingdoms work together, creating a tournament that constantly reminds kingdoms to work together, creating mystical chambers in separate geographic locations that protect Relics, which can only be unlocked by specific human keys, and which are further surrounded by trained Huntsmen as an extra layer of protection.

All these things are plans. They're also plans that have nothing to do with defeating Salem. Instead, they're plans to unite humanity and prevent Salem obtaining the Relics.

The show also gives us examples of Ozpin's closest allies misinterpreting his plans and goals. Ironwood's first introduction consisted of him thinking Ozpin trains students to fight a coming war. Ozpin waits until Ironwood is out of earshot before refuting that belief.

So, we know the following: Ozpin does make plans, they're not the kind of plans his closest allies think they are, and he doesn't correct misconceptions about him that they might have.

Well, I never claimed that it was a good thing. I've always argued that Who Wants to Live Forever? is in effect, and that both immortals secretly desire an end to their existence and the chance to rest in peace (it's their bucket lists that are the problem). That pretty much excludes the concept of immortality being 'good' and, if you re-read my post, you'll notice that I described the God of Light's lesson as a 'claim'. That wording was deliberate.

Whether or not you think the God of Light is lying is up to you, but if you thought I was saying immortality is good, you've misunderstood my post. Indeed, my post actually requires immortality to be inherently bad; I think the show has been fairly unambiguous in showing us that neither immortal thinks of it as 'good' and that the gods have not treated either form of immortality as a good thing for a human to have.

Because good people can do bad things. Good people can screw up. Everything we've been seeing in the adults are decisions made through fear and despair.

• Raven? Abandoned the fight because of fear.
• Leo? Switched sides because of fear and despair.
• Qrow? Constantly driven by despair and the more he feels it, the more he drinks.
• Ironwood? Trying to control everything and everyone around him because what he's really trying to control is his fear.
• Ozpin? Keeps secrets because he's afraid people can't handle the truth.

I'm actually hoping that Ironwood bucks the trend: everyone expects him to react badly to the truth because... well, everyone else has: Raven, Leo, Qrow, Team RWBY, Team JNPR. And Ironwood's been showing some spiralling behaviour. Glynda indicates early on that Ironwood has trust issues, and Ironwood implies to Team RWBY that his past event that led to his cybernetic body involved apparently seeing things that weren't there (which might explain the trust and controlling issues he now has — it's a PTSD issue).

It would be a nice twist if it turns out that all Ironwood really did need was the truth... and that he takes it better than anyone else has.

Well, anyone else other than Maria, that is.

That said, I'm expecting him to double-down on the controlling behaviour. But it would be nice if he took the truth better than the others have, if for no other reason than he's been set up from the very beginning to handle it worst of all. This would be a genuine subversion of that set-up.

According to the Volume 4 DVD Commentary, whether or not Qrow uses his scythe depends on how he strategises a fight. He didn't use his scythe against Tyrian because Tyrian is such a fast and agile fighter that the scythe form would have made Qrow too slow. So, Qrow doesn't use the scythe mode in that fight because he's faster and more agile with the sword.

Edited by Wyldchyld on Sep 14th 2019 at 11:18:51 AM

If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.

Staling Is not much of a plan that preventing one, which Is kinda the point: they are fighting a enemy they cant beat without hope something Will change.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"

I have to disagree with the idea that stalling in itself is a plan. Stalling can work as a plan so long as it is the precursor to an actual plan. Most of Ozpin's "plans" just amount to different forms of stalling however.

• Hiding the Relics in the Vaults and locking them with the Maiden powers
• Building the Academies around the Vaults
• Hiding the Maidens from the public eye
• Training Students at said Academies
• Having graduated students become Huntsmen and fight the Grimm
• Keeping the public calm so as to minimize the threat of the Grimm

Except these are nothing more than temporary solutions, akin to putting a band aid over an open wound without treating it. Every solution Ozpin created was either undermined by his own forces misunderstanding his intent as he refuses to clarify, or circumvented by Salem's forces.

• Salem began hunting down the maidens and succeeded in having Cinder steal half of Fall's Power and half of Amber's soul
• She's managed to effectively take down half of the Academies by employing both Human Wave Tactics and painting him in a negative light by making him look incompetent
  • The Fall of Beacon ultimately came about because Cinder was able to paint it as if Atlas and Vale were about to go to war. Yang, a Beacon Student, looked like she assaulted a Haven student unprovoked. Penny, an Atlas Student, revealed to be a Robot in Disguise after being torn apart by Pyrrha, another Beacon Student. The failure in preventing the Breach. The rampant dust thefts plaguing Vale. All these Atlesian warships in the skies above Vale followed by Atlesian Knights and Paladins attacking civilians. Cinder effectively used Ozpin's inaction and Ironwood's proactiveness against them. Add on the White Fang in her employ spearheaded by Adam along with all the Grimm they released into the city.
  • Even if they stopped the Fall of Haven Academy, it still got shut down. Leo had to be made a martyr when he was anything but one solely to stop any panic. The attack by the White Fang may have been stopped, but Haven Academy was still shut down in the process. All of Mistral's huntsmen were killed by Tyrian and Hazel thanks to Leo betraying Ozpin.
• She gathered subordinates to work under her easily capable of defeating his students and huntsmen
• Ironwood began seeing Ozpin's behavior as inaction and desired to subvert Villains Act, Heroes React, only for Ozpin to keep shutting him down, resulting in Ironwood going behind his back to do what he thought was right
• Leo became terrified of Salem and felt Ozpin had no way to defeat her, and desired to cower at her feet and be her bitch rather than keep working for him

And when one of Ozpin's strategies was foiled, he had no real backup, continuing under the mantra of "We can't cause a panic". Except that only helped Salem in the long run.

• Amber was taken out of commission. His solution was to put pressure on one of his students and turn her into a new vessel
• Someone gets into Beacon Tower and he doesn't even bother to run a Virus Scan
• He sends four students on a mission above their level under the rationale they'd just go anyway if he said no, and that led into the Breach, said incident causing the Vale Council to put Ironwood in charge and threaten to remove Ozpin from his position
• Once he gets to Haven, he decides to wait an entire month before seeing Leo, even aware Leo is likely compromised, in turn allowing him time to plan

Stalling in the end is nothing more than delaying the inevitable. It's comparable to two people holding guns to each others heads and afraid to pull the trigger out of fear the other will pull it faster. They can stall all they want, eventually one of their arms will get tired enough that their grip slips, and the other will get to blow their brains out.

Stalling only works if it actually has a purpose behind it outside of just stalling.

Even Ozpin's attempt at creating Peace between the people of Remnant was failing.

• Faunus racism was a thing, and after the failure of Ghira's White Fang to get any sufficient change, they radicalized and saw themselves as Your Terrorists Are Our Freedom Fighters. Tensions continued to grow higher as a result.
• The four kingdoms were only unified as a result of the Vytal Treaty, which only came about after the King of Vale effectively forced them into peace. They were perfectly willing to submit to his rule after the Vacuo Campaign, and he instead opted to have the Vytal Treaty made. Add on that the King is all but confirmed to be Ozma and the theory he used the Crown of Choice to influence the other leaders into following his rules to the letter so he could prepare against Salem, and natural peace never actually happened
• All the attacks from Salem's forces left a tension in the air, something he acknowledged but didn't do anything about. And this tension was left to be exploited by Cinder, allowing people to find her claims of Vale and Atlas getting ready for war to hold water

Peace is a fragile concept. True peace, or at least, the kind the Gods want, is theoretically impossible. Why? Because we possess Free Will. So long as we have the capacity to think, we will make opinions. We will not always agree, and we may escalate to violence. People will look for any reason they can to hate and discriminate. Whether its by race, like the prejudice against the Faunus, or Nationality like Atlas' ethnocentric behavior.

Ozpin was given the impossible task of trying to bring forth true peace, or in other words, make Remnant into a Utopia. Upon learning he couldn't kill Salem, he'd fallen back on his true mission. But its one he can't achieve. Even if he doesn't want to believe it, but Failure Is the Only Option.

And say he was aware of it, well stalling ultimately failed too. Cause like I said, it only delayed the inevitable. If Ozpin has given up on his mission from the gods, then rather than stall, he should have been fighting back. Even if he can't kill Salem, that doesn't mean he should just turn a blind eye to what she does and keep doing nothing under the guise of "We can't cause a panic". Doing nothing is just as likely to cause one anyway.

Ozpin only has one option that would work. And that's actually fighting Salem. Even if she can't die, he can still push her back, and be more active in preventing her from causing disasters. Stop worrying about causing panics, cause doing that will cause them anyway.

Edited by RebelFalcon on Sep 14th 2019 at 9:11:52 AM

Vegeta: I'm back bitches!

I feel like Red Vs Blue just doesn't exist anymore. :/

I think that was the crux of the matter. "According to the commentary you have to buy the DVD to view here's a tidbit of information."

I've scarcely seen works that require

Edited by Soble on Sep 14th 2019 at 6:14:28 AM

I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!

While Red Vs. Blue was their first big show, most agree that RWBY eclipsed it in popularity, and that while Red Vs. Blue does still have a devoted fanbase, its not as big as RWBY. I've seen a lot of people only get into Red vs. Blue as a result of first seeing RWBY.

Vegeta: I'm back bitches!

Ok then.

Still wouldn't call RWBY the "flagship." Rooster Teeth existed and was plenty popular before the first episode of RWBY.

I've seen a lot of people only get into RWBY as a result of first seeing RVB where they advertised the heck out of it. I was one of them.

I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!

Guess it goes both ways then. Really, the way to determine which is their Flagship series is which brings in the most revenue. Which gets the most views, which has the most merchandise, which gets the most Earned Media like fanfics, discussion videos, and etc.

Vegeta: I'm back bitches!

Except without them we would have a Fall of Beacon much earlier in the story. Nobody would notify people on hand that there is a fuckton of Grimm and White Fangers coming in to bust into the downtown. The situation probably would have been contained, but Ozpin would be guaranteed to be straight up ousted from the Council.

...incidentally, fuck these Councils, not just Vale's, but all of them (except Atlas's, since that one might prove actually important). They provide nothing to the story, simply being some kind of nebulous ruling class whose faces we don't even see and who has apparently enough authority to straight up demote Ozpin from his post. Pretty sure the entire council should have been replaced after the failure that was the Breach, not just the named guy.

And fuck that. RWBY has a bad habit of just straight up turning nameless characters (and named ones with small roles) into props for named ones to show off their "skill". It's not a problem exclusive to the show, but it's IMO a prevalent issue either way. "All the Huntsmen" killed by two people, even if supremely skilled, even with support from the Huntsmen's superior, just feels... meh. We see the protagonists (who have likely way less skill and experience than a "huntsman" would, and generally had a poor showing over the series) straight up punt one of these people out of the building during the Vol 5 finale.

grah

Yes, a strategy where the Big Picture end-goal is 'stalemate' rather than 'win' is a case of constant, ever-changing short-term plans and counter-plans to achieve a long-term stalemate because the goal is not 'to win', it's 'to avoid losing'. The very thought of this kind of strategy, played by an immortal who thinks 'winning' is impossible, should be utterly exhausting to contemplate because it is a strategy that has no end and no rest — Evil Only Has to Win Once is in effect.

However, stalemates can be legitimate Big Picture end-goals to strategise. People may be so used to the win-lose strategy that they're not so familiar with the stalemate strategy, but it's not an uncommon storytelling device, and one that gets employed when one player has to avoid losing but believes victory is impossible. The only goal left — the only strategy remaining — is a deliberate decision to plan solely for stalemate. That may encompass small victories and losses along the way but, in the grand scheme, the big picture strategy is about stalemating an opponent you cannot defeat and cannot afford to have win.

While I have encountered this as a storytelling device a number of times, it's also a valid strategy in chess when a player no longer has a 'victory' option but can still avoid losing by forcing the game into a stalemate.

So, it perhaps would be more accurate for me to describe 'stalemate' as the Big Picture goal the plans are strategising for, but I would still call this a 'stalemate strategy' as the plan is to achieve stalemate instead of victory. The purpose of stalemate is to sacrifice the goal of winning to concentrate on avoiding losing.

Edited by Wyldchyld on Sep 15th 2019 at 6:41:34 PM

If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.

In chess it works however because by forcing a stalemate, the game is forced to end in a DRAW. But in something like a War between two Immortals however, it just becomes a game of endurance, cause as you said, Evil Only Has to Win Once.

Not really. He could have sent higher graded students. He could have sent only some professors like Glynda, Oobleck, and ever invisible Peach. He could have actually followed Ironwood's suggestion and sent some Atlesian troops there, an actual Military Strike Squad rather than Four Trainees, a Single Huntsman, and a Corgi.

You forget that it was Ozma who set up the idea of the Council's. In the grand scheme of things, the Council's are more akin to Parliaments for each Kingdom. They're the rule makers. They may not matter to the story overall, but they have to exist for the sake of establishing there is a government system, kinda like how series will have Mayor's who only really make The Cameo. Ozpin however is just an Academy Headmaster. While he's the "Big Good", he isn't in a high enough position of authority to avoid being disposed. That's the issue with running a Secret War when you aren't at the top of the Government: the Government can easily interfere. And they had a right to blame Ozpin since:

• A: He was aware there was something going on that caused the Breach, and his only response was to send Four Trainees, a Single Huntsman, and a Corgi, doing so allowing the incident to happen.
• B: He was the one supposed to be in charge of safeguarding the Vytal Festival, but with the Breach happening right before it and his not taking precautions to avert it, they would have little reason to think Ozpin could protect the Vytal Festival.
• C: It was ultimately Ironwood's forces that allowed the tides to turn. Even with RWBY and JNPR fighting off the Grimm, they were still overrunning the city until the Atlesian Airships arrived, so they'd have more reason to back Ironwood than Ozpin.

---

It's called The Worf Effect. It's a flawed story telling device, but its still one. It's also not unbelievable that those two killed so many huntsmen when they're two of the stronger characters in the show.

• Nora punting Hazel doesn't indicate she's stronger than him. Even a weaker enemy can send a larger one flying provided they have enough force and momentum behind their swing. And note that said punting, followed by being stabbed by Weiss and used as a springboard by Blake, barely scratched Hazel. He was still up and kicking ass, to the point most of the characters were exhausted having to face him. Hazel only lost because of the horrid writing leading to the Villains being defeated off-screen despite any evidence suggesting they should have won.
• Tyrian meanwhile is one of the stronger characters in the show, one who hasn't been truly defeated. He was easily decimating RNJR, and held his own against Qrow, managing to graze and poison him. He was Hoist by His Own Petard thanks to taking sadistic glee in doing so allowing Ruby to cut off his tail, and he only fled due to a tactical decision. He was still stronger than JNR, but losing his stinger threw off his balance, meaning a single mistep could have cost him more. So he pretty much said Screw This, I'm Outta Here before that happen. Remember, even without his stinger, he mauled that Beowulf that tried to sneak up on him, but that was a case of One enemy vs. Three. Had he not have to worry about losing balance, he'd have killed RNJR and Qrow. They only survived because he decided it wasn't worth the risk to try and keep fighting to kidnap Ruby while having to worry about balance.

Edited by RebelFalcon on Sep 15th 2019 at 8:56:29 AM

Vegeta: I'm back bitches!

And, unfortunately, The Worf Effect is how we have stuff like this: