Male Roles Vs. Female Roles in Fiction: Discussion/Analysis/Troperwank

My Euo knows of the Silent Hill?! (Swoons)

Marry me Euo! The more I learn about you the more you are the awesomesauce!

Yeah, between the main plot, let alone the fate of the women in the game because of said mommy issues like Cynthia, Eileen, Miriam, Rachel...well...any woman in that game and her treatment would be an interesting case study.

Shattered memories is an interesting case since it's a remake of the first Silent Hill with the gender and parental issues explored more directly if perhaps less subtly.

I've been thinking I'd really like to see a Gender Flip of the basic Super Mario Bros premise: a tubby, plain-faced, blue-collar woman finds herself in a fantasy universe where she must rescue a handsome and delicate prince from a female monster. Could the heroine and prince still be sympathetic under those circumstances? Could audiences accept a non-cute woman as the protagonist and a soft Non-Action Guy as the love interest?

edited 12th Feb '13 7:49:03 PM by Karalora

They could but if not there is always Super Princess Peach.

Well, now we're straying into This Loser Is You territory.

Though your post does bring up an interesting point; how much of our mythology is simple wish fulfillment? Yeah, most protagonists are idealized versions of humanity in some fashion. Is this a form of discrimination, or do we as consumers want it to be that way?

I also point to the romance/erotic literature genre - which is mostly by women for women and very exploitative to both genders - as another example of what I'm talking about here.

My favorite character from the movie Bridesmaids was the larger woman Megan.

She would make an awesome super hero.

Hmm, watching Spice and Wolf for the first time now.

I really like it. The dynamic between Lawrence and Holo is interesting. It also tackles their relationship in a very up-front way that you don't see in anime often.

I'll have to check that out.

School Days was an excellent anime for me. I know many people hated it, citing the Idiot Plot as the primary reason, but I enjoyed the show specifically for that reason. I don't think the characterizations were nearly as unrealistic as people made them out to be. While I don't want to spoil the ending and some of the major catalysts leading to that ending, I believe that the selfishness, cruelty, sexual frustration and poor communication among the students is absolutely spot-on. As noted by the show's trope page, the circumstances wouldn't have been nearly as tragic in real life, especially with girls who would be more emotionally stable, but it was a refreshing perspective on how royally fucked up high school relationships can be.

Makoto, the male lead, puts his libido before the feelings and personal boundaries of his female peers. He is painfully self-centered, and Sekai encourages this attitude despite repeatedly berating him for it. Kotonoha is dreadfully shy to the point of demonstrating serious self-esteem issues warranting intervention from a counselor. Sekai doesn't know how to express herself in a consistent and healthy manner, and she frequently overestimates her ability to impart moral advice on others. She's also a poor judge of character and a hypocrite.

Kotonoha is quite lovely and large breasted, and her shyness incidentally makes her more attractive and endearing, if not mildly annoying. The problem with Kotonoha is that her physique and her personality make it difficult for her to express any significant autonomy. She reminds me of a lot of pretty girls I went to high school with who were being emotionally abused by their classmates and couldn't - or didn't know how - to speak up and do something about it. I'd certainly call her a Deconstruction of the Shrinking Violet archetype.

Sekai reminds me of some of the girls in school who would try to play matchmaker and Dr. Phil with people when it was dangerously clear that they had no business doing so. This is a side effect of teenagers, especially teenage girls, overestimating their intelligence, wisdom and ability to console other people. We all did this to some extent when we were that age. Mean Girls also discusses this issue in some detail.

Makoto is despised by many viewers because he just comes off as such a douchebag, and some of the reviewers on this website angrily wondered what in the world the girls saw in him. I actually thought that was the point of Makoto's characterization as well as the girls' attraction to him. Plenty of guys I saw in school were total schmucks, yet they had an army of girls fawning over them. In retrospect, it made perfect sense. Adolescent relationships are a work in progress, and many teens don't know how to spot signs of an unhealthy relationship until its too late. Aside from one female character, it's vividly lampshaded that several of the girls who like Makoto can't quite articulate what they like about him. The whole thing just seems superficial.

Again, a lot of folks hate the show because the kids (and I do mean kids) are idiots, but it worked for me specifically because of how idiotically they acted for their age and gender dynamics. Teenagers are capricious, pretentious, and often unable to cope with their sexuality and romantic interests in a balanced and healthy manner. School Days does a great job of reflecting this imbalance.

edited 13th Feb '13 12:05:44 AM by Aprilla

First thing that came to mind was The Great Giana Sisters, which aren't really blue collar but they don't comform to classical notions of female beauty either [1]◊

I agree. I also think School Days shows how hard it is for teens to do what they know to be right because of their emotions.

This is where I think fiction can help greatly, teenage years are crucial because everyone knows so much but they are still so stupid. This is the time where we garner the experience needed to build relationships as adults, and whatever good or bad habits such experience can bring. I rather my son learn from the examples of fiction instead of the harder way and possibly painful way.

Anime also seems very apt in showing what happens when you give children or teens resonsibilities greater than their experience regardless of their intellectual aptitudes.

Death Note, Code Geaas, Evangelion, and others, while fantastic in their natures, are pretty good examples of showing how damaging it can be to push someone like that. The Ender's Game series from Card, Dune Series from Herbert, and Wheel of Time Series from Jordan also explore this concept should one prefer a literary point.

In a world where kids may not have the tangible examples of proper and healthy relationships, gender roles, and self evaluation, this can have quite an impact. (Hence part of the backlash against works like Twilight.)

I know I am going to show my son School Days as soon as he is old enough.

One of the issues I end up having with anime is that I'm not really interested in stories revolving around children, unless they are portrayed more realistically. I have a short list of seinen anime left to watch, and after that I think I'll have exhausted most of the stuff out there that I'd enjoy watching, which is a shame. I've ran across some real masterpieces though.

But I have to say, I guess I am a sucker for romantic dramas that play peoples emotions and actions realistically. Watching spice and wolf was a recommendation from a friend, and I was really skeptical at first, but there's just something about it that I really like and can't put my finger on so far. It doesn't really have much of any real overarching plot, but the characters are very realistic in their motivations and the way they behave. The two main characters have a thing for eachother, but they have attitudes that are found in both sexes, but flipped from what the common aggregate is. The female in the story has trouble expressing her feelings to him because she doesn't want to look weak, and the male has problems with expressing his feelings because he doesn't feel like he wants to impose, make their journey/friendship awkward, and because while she pulls her own weight when the shit hits the fan, she relies on him for just about everything else.

For srs guys, just imagine me leaning forward in my chair with popcorn and tea, eagerly fawning over the strange Will They Won't They love of a wolf goddess and a wandering merchant. It's pathetic. I'm a sucker for a good love story if it's done right.

edited 13th Feb '13 1:21:29 AM by Barkey

Barkey, have you seen 500 Days of Summer?

Nope.

You may like it, if not you will probably appreciate the way they depict the fickleness and fustrations that can come from modern relationships and how communication is so relative.

It's a conversation starter.

Well, UK Sitcoms The Vicar Of Dibley and Miranda both featured that dynamic. Miranda more than TVOD, where the romantic plot was only introduced in the last episode.

The problem here is that each of the anime you mention glorify the very same actions it condemns, so get ready for a Misaimed Fandom.

For example, The Godfather and Scarface were both intended by their creators to denounce criminal life... but that wasn't the message fans got. To fans, the Corleones and Tony Montana were the epitome of "cool". They didn't care, lived rich and hard and paid for it, but fans feel that last part made the first part worth it.

Another example is 24. For as much as Jack Bauer's actions are denounced as extreme even within his own series, he is extremely popular and his actions are seen as justified by audience in general. Same deal with Kratos of God of War. No one cares that he killed his family, screwed himself over and died at the end for revenge. The guy beat the crap out of an entire pantheon, became a god, and banged Aphrodite. That's a billion times cooler than what the average person will do in their lifetime. Any fallout that happened afterwards is invalid.

edited 13th Feb '13 6:38:53 AM by KingZeal

Evangelion glorifies the very thing it's denouncing? No. Not buying that.

Light goes down in flames and blood, as mentioned at the beginning, just like a Shakespearen prelude. Not really glorifying there when the whole last act is discussing how blood thirsty and insane he is. L is the one presented as the Jesus figure there.

Now I could see that slightly with Code Geaas. But that's not that popular of an anime compared with the Evangelion works.

And yes, while there are portions of the fandom that miss the point, that doesn't somehow make the points null and void. Anime especially attracts a wide range of ages and demographics. A lot of young people are probably going to think guys like Light and Zero are awesome. But more adult fans are going to see through that better.

I don't think any age group would dream of being Shingi or Rei especially. Evangelion is a classic and a cornerstone for a reason. I don't see anything being glorified in that one. If anything, it's so bleak it should probably come with it's own razor blade set.

The Misaimed Fandom was apparently one of the reasons the creator had a nervous breakdown.

But you said this was for your son, right?

And no, adults won't. A high number of fans of Godfather, Scarface and God of War are adults.

Or did you think their target audience was kids?

edited 13th Feb '13 7:02:46 AM by KingZeal

A lot of the works you mentioned show really well how Men Are the Expendable Gender works. It doesn't really matter how much this men sacrifice, what is considered important are their gains. The stakes have to be high and going down guns blazing is considered better than not matter at all. Which makes me think better of the creators for once since they are actually trying to work against these preconceptions, even though they often fail to do so.

edited 13th Feb '13 7:30:13 AM by Besserwisser

If anything, they're perpetuating it even worse.

I've gotten really tired of the "Trilogy Death" trope that's been going around lately. Almost every series (especially games) that dubs itself a "trilogy" is overeager to kill off their (usually male) protagonist at the end.

• The Matrix
• Mass Effect
• God of War
• Dead Space^note Or Is It
• Metal Gear Solid^note Technically, since it's the fifth game in the main Metal Gear series, but it's the third Solid starring the eponymous protagonist.
• Assassins Creed

edited 13th Feb '13 7:15:06 AM by KingZeal

It's funny that you'd mention it because I was thinking about the same thing on the train to college this morning. It's starting to get really old.

But in that example, IMO, there is a clear progression from conventionally unattractive to conventionally beautiful (albeit still cartoonish). Given that it appears to be a series of images from different points in a timeline, I'd say that shows the depictions of women in media aren't necessarily getting any fairer or better. It's not bad for female characters in media to be attractive, but that someone changed the Giana Sisters from unattractive to attractive is telling.

But that's judging by only one example.

Dead Space was mentioned. Ellie is one of my favourite female characters in a video game. Her role isn't as big as say, Alyx Vance's, but I tend to find female characters in video games irritating (a problem likely arisen from male writers writing female characters) and she managed to stay on my good side. I would never use the word "feisty" to describe her. They shouldn't have grown her eye back for DS 3 though.

Silent Hill is great for gender studies, this being underscored by the absolute dick move pulled by the director of the first film in making Harry a woman. But that's been talked about, so... *Zip.*

edited 13th Feb '13 9:00:08 AM by Alma

@83 and the whole teenager deiscussion: i really don't think all teenagers are that hopelessly stupid. obvious there are some who are, but not all. not every teenager is capricious, pretentious, and terrible at their relationships. of course I can see why they don't appear that often in fiction/media, as their not that entertaining. but still, its not that universal

that said, i have to wonder what works actually show the male side of the relationship less stereotypically. i mean when i see relationships in fiction, the man seems to fall into stereotypes more often than the girl does.

oh, and slightly differnt part of that discussion, Evengelion and shinji were brought up. now i haven't seen evangelion, but i have heard a lot about it, and i know a lot of people hate shinji. i have heard two reasons for the hate, 1) that they hate him because he's poorly written and 2) they hate him becuase "he's a whinny, emotional, twat" and such wording for the fact he's not the usual male protagonist. my question is why people get so angry over that second one? why'd it get so much hate? i can't really think of that many introverted, emotionly insecure male protaginist, escpecally in anime. i was just wondering if anyone's got an explaination for this.

Well the thing about Shinji is that he acts like an actual depressed person, as in he has these horrible repetitive thoughts and doesn't really get better. Some of the people around him try to be kind at first and when they find he's unresponsive and doesn't magically get better like protagonists are supposed to, they become extremely frustrated, and so does the audience.

To paraphrase Tropic Thunder:

"Never go full depression!"