Five-Man Band cleanup

do we all feel good about the sandbox?

I do.

we could put it to a crowner too if necessary?

What's the sandbox link? I seem to have missed that.

Edit: Found it.

I've got a query about the Lost examples. The main cast was far larger than five people, and the second group is described as an 'intended' group — doesn't that mean it never happened? Does anyone know where in the clean-up thread that was discussed so I can go and read it? For some reason I can't make search work to help me find prior discussions in forum threads.

Also, the Magic Kingdom for Sale — SOLD! examples are written in a way that suggest shoehorning, given that it lists Questor as Lancer and Abernathy as The Smart Guy and then states that both of them have some aspects of the other trope, too. That kind of language usually gets an example removed for shoehorning. I also think Bunion may be shoehorning. If he's the character I'm remembering, then he was part of a pair (two Kobolds, one was the chef, the other the court runner — they were only used in the plot as needed and never formed the core adventuring group, which consisted of the four core characters (Ben, Questor, Abernathy and Willow) and then whatever plot-relevant extra(s) as needed).

Edited by Wyldchyld on Apr 23rd 2019 at 9:30:42 AM

In all honesty, most of these examples weren't discussed, so that may be why there's some unfitting examples added. We individually tried to find context for different examples on each subpage, and some things slipped through the cracks.

As for Lost, the main group is described In-Universe as the A-Team within the greater ensemble of survivors. While there is a large ensemble, those 5 are in they're own distinct team.

the second group, i'm may be misremembering, but the 5 people came together even though the leader died early on. I believe they may have all worked together in a flashback sequence.

—

I'm not personally familiar with the magic kingdom example.

Edited by acrobox on Apr 23rd 2019 at 7:19:58 AM

It sounds like the Lost example may need rewording then.

As to the Magic Kingdom example, I reread the story just to double-check and it's completely wrong. In the first book alone we have the following:

Ben's first core group, and the primary one throughout most of the story is five-strong, consists of himself, Questor, Abernathy, Parsnip and Bunion. However, both Parsnip and Bunion are engaged in roles that could be described as The Big Guy, but they're also more in the background than the core three, always present in a sort of lurk-mode until the plot has a reason for them to either fight or scout (Bunion does all the scouting, but both Kobalds fight even though Parsnip is technically the chef). Neither Questor nor Abernathy take the role of The Lancer. The closest either of them get is the role of The Smart Guy. Hell, most of the point of the first story is that Ben isn't even The Leader... it's about him trying to earn the right to be The Leader. He spends most of the time following Questor and Abernathy's advice until he's confident enough to start making overruling them on the really big decisions, and in fact is the only character that gets close to role played by The Chick (obviously, he's not The Chick).

His chick-esque role means that the group ends up gaining two gnomes in the team (much to the horror of the rest because of the reputation the gnome race has). And shortly afterwards, Willow ends up with the team as well (she invites herself onto the team, stalking them without their knowledge for days until they get into trouble whereupon she reveals her presence by rescuing them). Willow may be the only female in the group and she may appear to be more fragile (she's not), but she doesn't play the role of The Chick. To the end of the story, the only character that ever really does the team-building, mediator and keeping-the-team-together role is Ben.

Really, we have a sort of Power Trio (Questor, Abernathy, and Ben) who happen to be accompanied by two Kobalds, (and, eventually, two Gnomes, and a Sylph). And I wouldn't trope them under Power Trio, because that would be a shoehorn, too.

So, no, the Magic Kingdom entry is not valid.

Edited by Wyldchyld on Apr 26th 2019 at 1:34:43 PM

Go ahead and cut it then.

Done.

In cleaning up the Phineas and Ferb pages, I came across this and promptly deleted it:

• In general, Phineas and his friends form one:
  • The Leader - Phineas (Doubles as The Face)
  • The Lancer - Ferb
  • The Smart Guy - Baljeet (sometimes Isabella)
  • The Big Guy - Buford
  • The Chick - Isabella
  • Sixth Ranger - Irving
  • Team Pet - Perry
• Isabella and her Fireside Troop also form one:
  • The Leader - Isabella
  • The Lancer - Adyson (she's the snarkiest, and takes command in Isabella's absence)
  • The Smart Girl - Gretchen
  • The Big Guy - Candace, when her temporary role as a Fireside Girl comes into play.
  • The Heart - Ginger (as the only one other than Isabella with an established crush); otherwise shared/traded off by Holly, Milly and Katie
  • Tagalong Kid - Melissa, the "Little Spark" from "We Call It Maze"
  • Sixth Ranger - any of the nameless extra Fireside Girls who occasionally show up

hey if we're going back to arbitrating on other pages, does that mean we're all satisfied with the sandbox? can we put that to a crowner so we can put it to rest once and for all?

I'm satisfied. Everyone else?

Beyond the wonky 'intended line-up' wording of the second Lost example, I have no issues (and that one is a minor issue).

just updated the lost example to give more context. let me know if that works!

I think the sandbox looks good, but I'd like a crowner or mod weigh in on the issue of whether examples with more than two girls are allowed. Consensus in this thread seems to be that those examples are ok, as long as the characters clearly fit the roles (and in particular that The Chick is clearly defined), but this is contradicting past admin fiat.

We were discussing a crowner, but Septimus seemed to think one was unnecessary :/

The sandbox currently maxes out at groups with 2 girls though. We have not included any that have 3 or more, or a single gender teams.

For purposes of this sandbox update still sounds like we're good to go.

If a crowner decides we should include 3 or more girl teams, then we can collect more examples for a second update.

Edited by acrobox on May 18th 2019 at 12:19:03 PM

I found the following examples of a page I discovered recently and have been (very) slowly sorting out.

• Five-Man Band:
  • Heroes:
    • The Leader: Jaego Roth
    • The Lancer and The Chick: Aranessa Saltspite
    • The Smart Guy: Both Red Gunnarson and the Golden Magus fit this, with Red focusing on mechanics and the Magus with magic and spirits.
    • The Big Guy: Prince Yverllian
  • Villains:
    • The Big Bad: Count Noctilus
    • The Dragon: Vanghiest
    • The Brute: Skretch Half-Dead
    • The Evil Genius: Tordeck Hackhart
    • The Dark Chick: Amanhotep the Intolerant

I am guessing that neither are correct examples but thought I should check here before deleting them.

Edited by SebastianGray on May 18th 2019 at 6:11:10 PM

Not familiar with the work but if I'm understanding correctly, first is out because 1. single person with two roles and 2. role with two people, neither of which is allowed. Later is out as Amanhotep is male and thus not Dark Chick

The latter group is also disqualified since Five Bad Band got cut.

Guys, I'm going to propose we stick with the current sandbox and worry about the gender issue later. Maybe we can take it to TRS or something for a broader discussion and consensus, but since the sandbox currently limits the teams to a 3:2 boy-girl ratio, we might as well just stick with that limit for the time being. Otherwise, we're just going to continue being completely stagnant.

Thanks all, I thought both were wrong. I will delete them and cite this thread.

I agree. I'm fine with the sandbox as is. If there was a Crowner, I'd vote against 2 girls being eligible for the trope, but I'll worry about that if a Crowner is ever called. At the moment, the thread is working from two girls being eligible, and the sandbox is fine from that perspective.

Edited by Wyldchyld on May 19th 2019 at 7:22:48 PM

There are in fact teams with a 2:3 boy:girl ratio in the sandbox: Haruhi Suzumiya and House of Anubis among others. I think there is more precedent for the 3:2 ratio, but we've had a fair amount of disagreement about this issue more generally which is why I brought it up.

That said, I am ok with swapping it in for now and then deciding the issue later.