Complaining: Darth Wiki.Ruined Forever

I'm seeing a tendency in the examples of this page, it appears that this has just become the place where all the examples from Fan Dumb went after that page had them removed. Many examples mock the people complaining, strawman their opinions, and simplify it until it seems stupid.

Honestly I hate those two pages (and Hate Dumb), most examples on them tend to be "I disagree with this part of the fanbase/hatedom and their criticism. So I'll make them into a ridicolous strawman".

I don't know if the fanbases crying Ruined FOREVER are stupid or not, but this page is essentially turning into "complaining about complaints"

Whoops, forgot not to add a space between Ruined and Forever. How do I remove it so it properly links?

You click the little blue-green page icon at the top left of the first post. I did it for you.

Calling someone a pedant is an automatic Insult Backfire. Real pedants will be flattered.

Oh, thanks. Back on topic then.

I should add that I've had to delete some "counter" comments that were not only natter, but came across just as whiny in trying to defend their complaining about shows.

So perhaps an example sectimony might be in order (although a bit ironic since the page was split, but oh well).

I'm on the internet. My arguments are invalid.

Ironically, I would suggest here to make only In-Universe or Real Life examples the rule.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman

I usually dislike "In Universe Only" rules, but if it ends up being neccessary...

I mean, currently, this article has no discernable difference from Fan Dumb.

EDIT: Oh dear Christ, I just fell over this gem of a strawman, which shows everything that's wrong about this page:

"the average dumb Diablo fan hates World of Warcraft with a passion (and usually without any reason except it being World of Warcraft)"

edited 24th Apr '12 1:43:58 PM by SquigPie

I would prefer not to see this page lose its examples because some of them are pretty darn famous, to the point where they have been acknowledged in other media or even received an official response. If some examples don't fit this trope then let's just remove them.

I think part of the problem is that this is currently listed as a YMMV Audience Reaction, but this really isn't like the other Audience Reactions and we need to be clear that it shouldn't be treated like them. This is about known and documented cases of fandoms screaming Ruined Forever. Examples should be easy to find references to outside this wiki, like the Trope Namer.

I agree.

Alt account of Angeldog 2437.

Which is still technically Audience Reaction (audience = fandom; reaction = complaining), it just has the benefit of being noticed and documented by third parties.

An Ear Worm is like a Rickroll: It is never going to give you up.

So, should we just clean out all the "I think people complaining about this are stupid" and edit them into "People have complained about this"? Then hope it doesn't turn into Fan Dumb-with-another-name again?

edited 24th Apr '12 11:42:07 PM by SquigPie

Pretty much. Examples only need to document the phenomenon. There is no need to pass judgment one way or another on fans that cry Ruined Forever. And really, it's not uncommon these days to see fans throw around the accusation entirely in jest, thanks in large part to the Trope Namer. If fans can poke fun at themselves for this, there's no reason we can't keep it positive.

, Oh, man, if we're doing that, it's gonna be Ruined Forever! *

edited 25th Apr '12 10:44:40 AM by Feather7603

The Internet misuses, abuses, and overuses everything.

What we should try to do is to be fairly objective and specify the two viewpoints. No "X changed so Y is crap and this is the Truth" but also not complaining about complaints. For example regarding the Mass Effect 3 ending debacle, these two should not appear:

• "Whining, entitled fanboys do not appreciate artistic vision. They overreact."

• "The ending destroys the trilogy and marks the fall of Bio Ware."

No matter what's your opinion on the issue, it should say something like:

• "The ending to that game was controversial, a very large portion of the fanbase disliked it for X reasons, while the developers and other fans claim Y things."

Instead, I have learned a horrible truth of existence...some stories have no meaning.

Objectivity is the goal, because this really is objective. This is not about whether anything did cause something to be Ruined Forever or not. This is just to document examples of fandoms claiming Ruined Forever whether rightly or wrongly. Examples should be easy to find references to outside this wiki.

Clocking as inactive.

"If you aren't him, then you apparently got your brain from the same discount retailer, so..." - Fighteer

I'm now trying to fix the Mass Effect part of it because I already know the topic by heart, hehehe. Anyways those pages are full of unreadable caps, the spamming of the ! sign, complaining about complaining, natter, etc.

Meh such hypocrisy, when people whine at criticism and at other whining. Anyways I think this should either get a sectionectomy or go to Special Efforts, because the number of corrupted entries is through the roof.

Should I create a Special Efforts cleanup thread?

edited 26th May '12 1:10:04 PM by Anfauglith

Instead, I have learned a horrible truth of existence...some stories have no meaning.

Made a crowner, and I am asking if the trope name is a phrase.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman

Crowner hooked.

I note that almost all examples on this page are either They Changed It, Now It Sucks! or Jump the Shark, or both.

I voted for the merge. Still undecided on if we have to fix the examples or just delete them all.

Instead, I have learned a horrible truth of existence...some stories have no meaning.

.

edited 27th May '12 6:33:34 PM by abk0100

I definitely don't think this should be merged with Jumping the Shark. Jumping the Shark is about the point at which a series begins a noticeable decline, and is sometimes seen only in hindsight. Ruined Forever is a knee-jerk reaction, and the series in question may not be in decline at all. The fans are outraged, but they keep right on watching. Just look at the trope namer. Transformers is Ruined Forever every single time anything happens. There is no point in trying to find a point at which it jumped the shark. It hasn't. It's as strong as ever. But it is Ruined Forever. It's a different phenomenon.

Look at Star Wars, which has adopted the term and copied the Trope Namer's wiki page. If the series really jumped the shark, the franchise should have gone into decline. Last I checked the prequels did pretty well, even though Star Wars is actually Ruined Forever.

edited 29th May '12 7:54:24 PM by NewFnu

Hmmm, I would rather merge it with They Changed It, Now It Sucks! then (added a crowner option for that). Or just remove these awful "audience reaction" thingies.

edited 29th May '12 9:10:57 PM by Anfauglith

Instead, I have learned a horrible truth of existence...some stories have no meaning.

They Changed It, Now It Sucks! can be a specific cause of Ruined Forever, but they aren't the same thing. Many of the examples on Wookiepedia's Ruined Forever page aren't changes to anything. Some of them are just expanded universe stores that didn't go over well.

edited 30th May '12 11:50:25 AM by NewFnu