Spider-Man General Discussion

There’s a reason Reed can be a physicist AND an inventor and Tony can be an inventor AND a businessman: It’s more narratively economical to compress those roles into a protagonist instead of splitting them up among multiple characters.

It’s the same reason Peter can be a biochemist who also makes noise-cancelling headphones and cryogenic freezers and undetectable stealth suits and spider-tracers and whatever webware was.

It’s like how, in reality, people generally focus on some specialty within their field (like a historian focusing on post-colonial Africa, or a botanist focusing on Middle Eastern shrubs) but a character in D&D only has to roll for history or nature or whatever to see if they know something, because being realistic is tedious. Acceptable Breaks from Reality and all that.

Edited by RedM on Apr 1st 2019 at 5:15:54 AM

If I was a fan of Tony Stark or Reed, I'd probably slag Peter for being an underachiever and bash him. Since I'm not and I post here, I say the contrary. There are a number of stuff where the other Marvel heroes, probably ventriloquized by writers, slag Spider-Man as selfish. Like I think there's one comic where Avengers talk about secret identities and how unfair it is that Spider-Man gets one and how much of a burden it is for other Avengers to keep that a secret. Basically Spider-Man claims a right to a private life which other Marvel heroes don't have. Luke Cage can't have one, nor can the Fantastic Four, nor most mutants and X-Men. In Slott's Renew Your Vows, the AU where Peter says pass on the Avengers going to the Raft, Iron Man says that Peter's fixation on his family and personal stuff comes in the way of him becoming a superhero of real importance.

I am not personally a fan of Tony Stark or Reed Richards. I don't relate to either of them. To me a 35-40 year old arms dealers suddenly turning a new leaf is unbelievable, moreso than a spider biting a kid and giving him powers. There's fantasy and Wish-Fulfillment I can believe in, and stuff I can't. Likewise between Reed Richards and Doom, I, like many others, relate far more to the peasant minority kid whose genius and skill led to him immigrating to America and having difficulties because of the Culture Clash and still making something bigger and grander than himself, then I do to a guy who has always gotten his way for most of his life.

I am reading Hickman's Fantastic Four, and the first story, the three-parter that introduces the Council of Reeds basically says that the only options for Reed Richards to "solve everything" is to join an interdimensional councils of Alternate Reeds and abandon his family. And the message is that genius requires someone to sacrifice their family, or that family gets in the way of Reed's brilliance. So there's a kind of weird attitude that Marvel engenders in its attitude to characters.

Edited by Revolutionary_Jack on Apr 1st 2019 at 4:14:05 AM

In early FF comics Reed actually bankrupted the team with bad investments

It led him to selling the film rights of the FF to Namor

Weird but true

Okay but probably multiple people in the Spider Man thread despite being in the spider man thread are also fans of multiple Marvel IP

Edited by Bocaj on Apr 1st 2019 at 7:13:15 AM

You are right. I like the Fantastic Four and Iron Man comics, and I think the fact that you aren't entirely supposed to identify with Reed and Tony is part of the appeal of the best stories there. I also am a huge fan of Iron Man 3 and that version of Tony has my total respect. Also gets one of the best last lines in any superhero movie.

I also like other Marvel IP, I like Doctor Strange, Captain America, Black Panther, Daredevil, and of course the X-Men, and I like Thor.

Edited by Revolutionary_Jack on Apr 1st 2019 at 4:17:50 AM

I mean, yeah, Doom came from humble beginnings... but he’s a dictator. Peter struggles with money, but poverty doesn’t give him some kind of moral high ground.

Edited by RedM on Apr 1st 2019 at 5:18:28 AM

I said between Reed and Doom I relate more to Doom for reasons that Ta-Nehisi Coates discusses here (Doom has a lot of cache in the rap scene). Between Peter and Doom, I relate more to Peter, though when Spider-Man and Dr. Doom fought in ASM #350 and Doom gave him a brutal No-Holds-Barred Beatdown (seriously check that fight out it's brutal what Doom does to Peter), I didn't feel that bad because Doom is a Worthy Opponent and "come at the king, best not miss". That backgroun informs Peter's courage in "Doomed Affairs" which is among my favorite JMS stories. Dr. Doom is a tyrant and dictator but you do relate to him as a character in the way you relate to Macbeth even after all the bad stuff he did. Like that bit in that infamous Luke Cage story, where Doom tells Cage that Luke is just Victor when he was young, a small minority kid pushing against the world that held him back.

I loved that fight (I have the issue) because Spiderman is one of the few characters Marvel specifically tiers and when he fights the Juggernaut or Doctor Doom, he absolutely gets his ass kicked and he looks MORE heroic as a result.

Spider-Man ultimately did beat Juggernaut and he beat Firelord, but he has never beaten Dr. Doom. As Captain Universe he did well against Magneto and the Tri-Sentinel. Way back in TASM #5 (which by the way is Dr. Doom's first appearance outside of Fantastic Four and as such is ground zero for his elevation as a Marvel-wide villain), Spidey did well but that Doom was a Doombot. He gets his ass handed to him by Doom in ASM #350. I mean seriously nobody else has quite trounced Spider-Man like that.

Now now, he won with the help of Squirrel Girl.

A Dikto original!

:)

So in all this talk about smarts and wealth, where does Norman Osborn fit in? In the classic Lee-Ditko era, he was more of a Randian looter business man, and it was implied most of his stuff was actually Stromms. Though it is shown that the Goblin formula made him smarter. He's more of a business man than a scientist but still a scientist. Unlike the movie version who is something of a scientist than businessman. Most modern portrayals i see, like the Marvel Knights incarnation, have him both a master of science and business. Basically Peter if he was socially and financially smarter.

While Dark Reign portrayed him as inferior to Stark, the fact that Norman was able to use and modify Iron Man tech is pretty impressive for a chemist.

Edited by RedHunter543 on Apr 2nd 2019 at 12:41:49 PM

Agreed.

My general view is that Norman Osbourne is a Steve Jobs for the most part. He has a scientific background and is capable of understanding the basics behind all of his inventions but he's primarily a businessman versus an inventor or engineer. My inclination is he's not the guy in the labs modifying Stark's armor, though.

I also note that Osbourne's Goblin formula is horribly dangerous and drove him insane(r).

Stark is an inventor primarily who moonlights as a businessman (and is actually terrible at it—it's just that he can rebuild his company's fortunes by making fusion power work over the weekend).

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Apr 2nd 2019 at 5:14:04 AM

My personal sense is that Osborn is more of a business and criminal genius than a scientific one. I think in science he's a Jack of All Trades. I will say that Dr. Octopus and event Curt Connors are more accomplished as scientists than him. His magpie like reworking of Stark tech is an example of that. Even when Norman Osborn was elevated to a Marvel-wide villain, he often over-extended himself. Like in Fantastic Four Dark Reign he attacked the Baxter Building, and was mocked by Reed's kids, and Osborn enraged unleashed a gun and started shooting at them (I s—t you not, he fired a gun at children), before Reed and Sue shut him down and kicked him away. Dr. Doom and Namor in the Cabal barely took him seriously, Doom told Namor that just wait out Osborn before he destroyed himself, since he was sure that would happen.

Edited by Revolutionary_Jack on Apr 2nd 2019 at 5:17:04 AM

Osborne is actually someone I put down with Bullseye, Red Skull, Malcolm Colcord, and a handful of others.

He is one of the most evil people in the entirety of the setting.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Apr 2nd 2019 at 5:30:25 AM

There's absolutely no low to which Norman can't sink himself too, break ground and go even lower. There's no bottom with him.

I actually liked some subtext of Dark Reign that Norman Osbourne had a Trump-like inability to realize his weight class.

• Doctor Doom, Loki, and Namor are never going to see him as anything resembling a Worthy Opponent let alone an equal.

• He tried to start a war with ASGARD. A city-state fully capable of probably wiping out the USA if it's inclined.

• He tried to make the Sentry his pet. A Eldritch Abomination kept on leash solely by its delusion it's a Silver Age superhero.

Honestly, I'm genuinely surprised he didn't try to recruit Magneto or Galactus.

While Norman is an awesome Spiderman villain, I think he's not even up to Kingpin's level.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Apr 2nd 2019 at 5:29:57 AM

Norman is above Kingpin's level. Kingpin is a jobber in Spider-Man stories at least until JMS' Spider-Man ended the illusion that he could be anything else in "Back in Black" (since then Spider-Man writers in 616 have avoided having Kingpin and Spidey fights). The only reason anyone cares about Kingpin is because Frank Miller transported him to Daredevil and made him a major part of the most influential comics Marvel put out in The '80s.

Green Goblin is a great character and a terrific antagonist. He's the perfect foil to Peter as Spider-Man by Raimi showed so well. Peter's the young guy, with relationship doubts and issues, his Aunt is sick and so on, while Osborn is the older guy with a mid-life crisis, a son he hates, and in the classic era stuck with a company that isn't doing all that well and having business woes. Then he makes himself into a Goblin and somehow he's freed of his responsibilities and doesn't care anymore. Osborn is basically the embodiment of adult fears. And of course Peter is poor, and Osborn is rich. And Green Goblin embodies a certain impunity. He floats on a glider above the people and rains death from above. If you read The Night Gwen Stacy Died, that's part of the subtext there. Peter calls Goblin an elitist, there's that joke about Goblin choosing the George Washington bridge because it's his favorite president. So you have references to patrician authority. And of course Peter's major ally in his attempt to find Norman is ultimately, Robbie Robertson, the major African-American character of the mythos, and reporter and father figure to Peter.

Honestly, I think Green goblin is overexposed and was a terrible villain until they made him Kingpin-Lite.

But that's just me.

All the Kingpin has to him is joker immunity on his arrest status. Sure in universe, Kingpin is in a better position, but Norman Osborn still did take over the marvel verse. That's no small feat there. I'm honestly surprised Norman hasn't established a Joker like rep, or a Lex Luthor rep as head of HAMMER. Marvel doesn't really push the Goblin as a character like the Joker, despite Goblin having a great power set and great story potential.

EDIT: you know, I don't really get the over exposed arguments, Goblin's been dead for decades. And honestly, Goblin has the chops as the Big Bad of Spider-Man, so over exposure isn't exactly bad for him.

Edited by RedHunter543 on Apr 2nd 2019 at 5:57:13 AM

I think that may be because Norman managed to become head of SHIELD and then immediately collapsed under the pressure. I actually think that makes him a more interesting villain as he couldn't control his Cabal, HAMMER, make a second Civil War, or keep his villain army stable. It all exploded and he actually went full Goblin at the end (when he didn't want to).

Fisk controlling New York's underworld more or less consistently in a city of supervillains is a pretty damn impressive accomplishment.

Fisk also has the fact he beat the shit out of the Red Skull when he was in a Captain Clone body.

BEST KINGPIN MOMENT EVER

https://scans-daily.dreamwidth.org/4513196.html

Sometimes I wonder if the Goblin persona is the better half. At least as a villain.

Both sides kind of trip each other, really.

Kingpin suffers from Deathstroke-is-cool-ergo-he-beats-JLA syndrome. That famous BS moment from that DC series where Deathstroke, an eye-patch wearing loser who came to fame battling a team of kid sidekicks manages to decommission the Justice League including Green Arrow, Black Canary, Green Lantern, the Flash and others all by himself. The editor who allowed that should have been sent to siberia or something. Writers use Fisk in stories and situations he has no business being in largely because they want to imitate Frank Miller. He doesn't have super-strength so someone like Spider-Man who can lift and toss cars and stuff should have no problem with him. Put Fisk in Punisher stories, and you have to see writers run rings trying to avoid Castle putting a bullet in his domed skull. So they come up with BS i.e. "If we kill him someone even worse will come, or things would be worse", when that's not how society and real life works.

I don't know why people want to trade accusations of Norman being Kingpin-lite. For one thing Goblin being a supervillain who wanted control of the underworld was a big part of who he was in Lee-Ditko Spider-Man well before Kingpin arrived. Nobody gave a damn about Kingpin until Frank Miller came along and totally revamped and updated him. Before he was a Sydney Greenstreet and Bond Villain knockoff.

Goblin being the one Spider-Man villain who always escaped jail and remained a Karma Houdini, was part of his mystique and threat level in his classic period. He was Spider-Man's most mysterious, most unpredictable, and dangerous opponent. And the comics repeatedly insisted on that. This whole idea that Norman was some nobody until Gwen Stacy's death or that he wasn't Spider-Man's Arch-Enemy until then is flatly untrue. For one thing, you had so many stories after that about Goblin pretenders. Goblin's death didn't lead to an elevation for Doctor Octopus you know. And then Venom came along.

I would never argue Green Goblin was a nobody until he murdered Gwen. But i would argue that's what elevated him to the top. Even in the Tangled web story, he cites that as what separates him from the other villains. See to me, what makes an arch-enemy, is how personal things are, Palpatine is the big bad of star wars and the biggest threat, yet the real tension is between Vader and Luke. Green Goblin certainly had presence and was a threat, there were panels in the Lee Ditko Run that had Peter worry over who the Goblin was and such. But to me, Doc Ock had Goblin beat in both the personal departments and threat level, Doc Ock broke Spider-Man's spirit when they first fought, came the closest to unmasking him, kidnapped his Aunt and crush and endangered his Aunt's life twice. To Peter back then Doc Ock was the one to worry about, while Goblin had the mystery and the Karma Houdini, Peter knew in the back of his head, that at least Goblin could never threaten him the same way Doc Ock could until 39 of course. To Peter, Doc Ock was the one who endangered his loved ones, came the closest to unmasking him, and defeated him. That's one of the reasons why Doc Ock was picked as the Big Bad of if this be my destiny, sure Doc Ock has nothing interesting character wise with Spider-Man, but Spider-Man triumphing over Doc Ock showed how much Peter grew up.

Edited by RedHunter543 on Apr 2nd 2019 at 7:05:23 AM

“He doesn't have super-strength so someone like Spider-Man who can lift and toss cars and stuff should have no problem with him. Put Fisk in Punisher stories, and you have to see writers run rings trying to avoid Castle putting a bullet in his domed skull. So they come up with BS i.e. "If we kill him someone even worse will come, or things would be worse", when that's not how society and real life works.”

Sounds like Kingpin is too big to fail.

Topical, at least to a few years ago

As a big Kingpin fan I should note that he's a character that has multiple elements that make him awesome but distilled:

• He does have his own adventures like Doctor Doom.
• He employs lots and lots of supervillains so the, "You can't defeat Spiderman" thing isn't usually a problem.
• He is able to bounce back almost always from his bad problems.
• Usually his "normal human" status is in question as he's a normal human the way Iron Fist is. Charles Atlas Superpower.