This is discussion archived from a time before the current discussion method was installed.
samperi: Can anybody tell me why, exactly, are Kullervo and Quetzacoatl listed in the opening blurb? Do they appear in some VN of the Fate franchise that I'm not aware of?
Drow Lord: I don't think so. I think they're just there as examples. Can't have every name listed in the opening blurb be a giveaway, after all.
Citizen: No love for KFC, Jisu? =P Also, the title "Fake Ultimate Hero" shouldn't be taken literally. Assassin may be a fictional character by his own admission, but he's not to be taken lightly.
Canon Rap: Anyone disagree with the creation of Fate Zero as a separate page? (See Fate Zero Discussion)
Canon Rap: To clarify; Kuzuki can only go "toe to toe with Servants" because he's using something none of them have ever seen before, except maybe Sasaki, but even he wouldn't have seen Snake before. Saber was dodging it through Instinct, and It's been stated that someone with more martial arts experience (like Bazett) would fare better. Any of the Servants could've floored him if they survived the initial attack (and figured out how Snake works).
Canon Rap: Edits (since the amount I did seem to require some explanation):
- Almighty Janitor: Kotomine's rank isn't low (now Caren, hers was low), especially since he was an Executor himself. As for the Assembly of the 8th... the Burial Agency is actually the elite branch of that.
- Equivalent Exchange: Shiro does not break the rule, he pays with his own body. That's why Archer's skin tone, hair color, etc. are so different from Shiro - he fries his body every time he projects something.
- Our Vampires Are Different - Sakura may be a bloodsucker, but not a vampire (in {{Nasuverse]}, there's a difference).
- Possession Implies Mastery: changed slightly, since he does know how to use Erukidu/Enkidu and Ea.
- Power Glows: I didn't actually edit, but I'm wondering what is meant by "{{Mana}] distorts reality", considering that Mana is part of 'reality'.
- Power Levels: Gilgamesh's alignment is the same before and after corruption. He was a tyrant, but he also believed he was only tyrant who had the authority to rule, and went off and killed monsters for fun and to stop them from killing the people he was supposed to be killing.
- Road Cone: hollow ataraxia is not based on Heaven's Feel. The scene about "Heaven's Feel Backlight" is referring to the Grail War (of which the real name is Heaven's Feel).
- Squishy Wizard & Xanatos Gambit: Took off the "Chinese", not really significant, just worth mentioning. It's the Tohsakas' self-style.
And was swearing really necessary? (Not that I removed it, but...)
Mini Nephthys: Should we add more minor characters to the character sheet? I can think of at least a couple for Taiga (Genki Girl, Christmas Cake, possibly Cool Big Sis).
Also: maybe you weren't expecting the Issei/Shirou...
- I. B. Tropin: I wasn't, but I wasn't surprised either.
Chris X: I was thinking of adding Kirei. If you want to add Taiga, go ahead, do it.
I. B. Tropin: Considering how There Is No Such Thing As Notability, I recommend listing as many characters as possible. Then again, all really minor characters only really get developed in HA, So Yeah...
Mini Nephthys: I haven't played HA, unfortunately. But I went and added Taiga and Issei. My description of Taiga needs work, though.
Chris X: While we're at it, I've always thought that Lancer might be a Boisterous Bruiser, but I just can't find the correct reasoning for that. But then, now he's listed as a Boisterous Bruiser. To anyone who sees this... anybody can justify that with the reasoning why he fits as a Boisterous Bruiser? (Though pretty sure his Boisterous Bruiser-ness is not on the class of Fate Zero Rider)
I. B. Tropin: The justification is right there. Nevermind Hollow Ataraxia, you did play Unlimited Blade Works right? All the justification needed is right there.
Chris X: How about putting it into words? Some people just don't play UBW...
Drow Lord: He's talkative and fun-loving (for fighting). He flirts with Rin, and is the only person we've seen ever actually annoy Saber (not frustrate her, like Shirou does). He starts out as an antagonist, then in Fate gets a change of heart and holds off Gilgamesh and in UBW rescues Rin from Shinji and Kotomine, again at the cost of his own life, while sardonically bemoaning his terrible luck with women. He seems like a fun guy to be around, overall.
Drow Lord: Not all of the deaths in "Heaven's Feel" were bridge-drops. Saber's death was very dramatic...and she comes back as Dark Saber. Same with (Dark) Berserker. Archer's death (and the whole thing with the arm) was anything but anticlimactic. The deaths of Lancer and Caster are sudden, certainly, but questionable, since Lancer's death allowed Kotomine to beat True Assassin, and Caster comes back briefly as Dark Caster.
- Almighty Janitor - In the "true" ending of the Unlimited Blade Works route, Rin talks with Shirou after class, telling him that she has been accepted as a teacher at the Clocktower, and is allowed to bring him as her apprentice. This way he would be there for free but be literally the lowest on the totem pole, not even officially registered there. Despite the fact he could effectively massacre anyone there with his Reality Marble, something that, chances are, nobody else there could ever hope to obtain.
- Many top members of the Mage Association are very very powerful and some most surely have their own Reality Marbles. The Association is stronger than the Church. Examples would be Lorelei Barthomelois, the current Wizard Marshall of the Tsukihime Universe. Not at the level of the legendary Wizard Marshall Zelretch but she can easily kill even the strongest of the 27 Dead Apostles. There's sure to be Wizard Marshall in the Fate Universe as well.
Tsukihime and Fate are the same universe, so Lorelei is Wizard Marshall in both. Shirou's Reality Marble is powerful, but not nearly enough to take on the upper echelons of the Magi. Not to mention Reality Marbles are frowned upon, anyway, so he has to hide that ability. Still fits the trope, in that case.
- Ah yeah... well, then again, even though they're in the same universe, they occur at separate times, and since Tsukihime 2 isn't done/confirmed, we don't know if she's still alive.
The point I was trying to make was that a reality marble isn't portrayed as something you can get through effort - you either have the potential to bring it out or you don't, your aptitude isn't shown to be an issue (from what I've read, theres some pretty damn strict guidelines to using it - your backstory, personality, goals, circumstances, etc; tons of stuff that need to synch with it perfectly).
- Ah yeah... well, then again, even though they're in the same universe, they occur at separate times, and since Tsukihime 2 isn't done/confirmed, we don't know if she's still alive.
Dalantia: Okay. I'm going to keep pulling Nonstandard Game Over, because there IS a standard game over. The Bad End/Dead End IS the big black GAME OVER screen that we're used to - while the Tiger Dojo is the "Have some free advice so you don't die" blurb that we frequently see on today's game over screens. Are we seriously going to have to add every single game that has one of those to the Nonstandard Game Over page? What this game contains is a prolonged textual form of The Many Deaths of You or Have a Nice Death. Pick one or both of those two, but it's not Nonstandard Game Over.
Defiance: Yes it is. Here, let me quote Have a Nice Death at you: "Though the death message could just be randomly selected from a generic list, it often specifically relates to what killed you, thus overlapping with Nonstandard Game Over." And I'll reiterate this "Because every death is preceded by a unique death/end sequence and succeeded by a unique Tiger Dojo, both of which (the latter moreso) are parts of the Game Over. Just because the Tiger Dojo is optional doesn't mean it's not part of the Game Over. It's not possible to have a Tiger Dojo without it being Game Over." Also, by your definition, every game over that ends in a black screen is the same standard game over. So, have fun pulling it. *Sigh*
Dalantia: My definition is pretty much "If it consists of the same, consistent series on-screen events every single time, there is a standard game over". Issac Clarke has a unique animation for every critter that can kill him. Does that belong in Nonstandard Game Over? Indigo Prophecy has different narration for every single Game Over. Does that belong in Nonstandard Game Over? New Blood has different ending text in some chapters when you fail an operation, does that belong in Nonstandard Game Over? Let me quote Nonstandard Game Over right back at you: "If you're trying to claim, for any game, that "every game over is a non-standard game over", consider whether that sentence might be self-contradictory... ". It's a Wonderful Failure fits, though, much better than Nonstandard Game Over.
Dalantia: Okay, which one's the Simple End? (Also, keep in mind that I spent a week or two consciously not looking at this page because I felt I was getting too heated over it.) Tacking a Tiger Dojo number to it helps.
Drow Lord: I'm leaping into the fray and pulling the Non-Standard Game Over entry on the assumption that "simple end" means the Heaven' Feel Normal Ending (if I assumed wrong...well, crap, I screwed up then). I'd like to add that it's not the only ending that doesn't have a Bad/Dead End Tiger Dojo after it (the other four endings do, as well), and that the actual "end of the game" should not count as non-standard (it's the most standard game over imaginable).
...yeah, I probably misinterpreted "simple end."
Drow Lord: Yeah, that does make more sense.
Dalantia: Something feels off about it to my recollection of that scene, but I'll leave it hang until I can actually replay it myself.
Drow Lord: Actually, now that I've seen it, I kind of agree. It seems pretty Non-Standard.
Drow Lord: Tentatively pulling the Karma Houdini entry.
- Karma Houdini - Sakura in Heaven's Feel because she's ultimately not portrayed as a villain even though she was trying to cause The End of the World as We Know It and devoured the souls of hundreds of people.
- While she does kill many people and eventually turns evil, just how much of that was her own fault and her doing (as opposed to Zouken and Angra Mainyu) is a matter of debate. It helps that she's perfectly aware of her crimes, and one can argue that the Heaven's Feel normal ending is Sakura's karmic punishment, if one desires.
It's a pretty sticky distinction, since there's a whole boatload of other things going on.
Drow Lord: Just a couple questions. Is someone really The Scrappy if they're the the main, seriously evil villain? And does True Assassin really have a hatedom? I mean, I hated the guy until recently (blaming him for Saber's death), but I was under the impression that I was in the minority.
Guest Of Dishonour: If the main hero can be a Scrappy, I don't see why a main villain can't be.
Drow Lord: Well, the main hero is usually intended to be at least mildly sympathetic...
Andyzero: In Fate/Kaleid Liner Prisma Ilya, is Ilya Using the Archer card and becoming an Archer a reference to to the Archerko from the Sword Dancers doujin? Wouldn't surprise me, given how close Type Moon is to their fandom.
Ramidel: Chopped the Ho Yay section as follows:
- Prologue
- Rin x Saber: (Fate and HF routes only.) So, Saber defeats Archer immediately, repels Rin's A-Rank instant magic, and rushes in to deliver a fatal blow to Rin, pausing for just a moment to briefly compliment Rin on her magic skills. Rin, instead of having, say, a normal response to Impending Death, just lies there blankly mesmerized by "how heartwrenchingly beautiful and valiant" Saber's figure is.
- Fate Route
- Rin x Saber: H-Scene, Rin hitting on Saber, and Rin mentioning how she likes Shirou and Saber both the same *nudge* *nudge* *wink* *wink*.
- Really, did you have to go any further than 'H-scene'? When two characters have lesbian sex, complete with Rin actually saying that she 'never knew she was into girls until now', it's generally pretty clear there might be some Les Yay there.
- That the observation is delivered in Rin's usual Deadpan Snarker voice turns that into a Crowning Moment Of Funny for a lot of people.
- Unlimited Blade Works Route
- Rin x Saber: What kind of girl insists on going out on a date with a guy, invites another girl along on the date, and then spends half her time with that girl? It seems more like Rin was dating Shirou and Saber at the same time...
- The Good Ending to the route, the only path in the game in which Saber stays in the modern world, makes it pretty clear that she was doing exactly that. Here's a hint: It's also a 'harem' ending. Rin's harem, not Shirou's.
- Heaven's Feel Route
- Rin x Rider: One possible reading, but it has elements of Dude, She's Like in a Coma, though. It doesn't help that we do know from Hollow Ataraxia that Rider does swing that way.
After the incident, we were carried to the surface and managed to survive.
Rider took me to my house and replenished my magical energy.
- Prologue
None of this is Ho Yay, because in all such cases Rin is, at the least, explicitly attracted to the other, if not actually having sex with her. If it's Bi The Way or Schoolgirl Lesbians, that's a separate trope.
Ephyon: Ephyon: Can we just do away with the Did Not Do The Research entry? Or at least rewrite it dramatically? The initial entry seems to miss the point that Artistic License is what happens when the author DOES do the research, but doesn’t care, and from the way it is worded, I’m guessing someone added Artistic License afterwards, since the paragraph is clearly worded in a way as to seem negative. The specific and sometimes not popularly remembered details that pop up regarding many heroes (Arthur having an invisibility artifact, Herakles and Medea meeting on Jason’s trip, the really, really obscure origin of Eä, etc) make it clear the author knew the legends very well, he just chose to do whatever the hell he wanted with them. Since it now just stands as a block of Justifying Edits, I’d just scrap it altogether and replace it with a short Artistic License pointing out that all of the heroes’ designs obey the Rule of Cool.
Unknown Troper: Decided to pull this:
- *Hijacked by Jesus - The Holy Grail, which was originally the Cauldron of Someone Celtic, has been reimagined via the Legend of the Cup of Wishes. So this is a legend that was hijacked by Jesus and then hijacked by Japanese Mythology; but it turns out in the game it was hijacked by a bunch of mages.
I went looking up some info on this. Whoever added the example wrote it in a grossly misleading fashion, and clearly they Did Not Do The Research anyway.
For one thing, the origin of the modern concept of the Holy Grail is contested by scholars. There is a school of thought that claims the Holy Grail is the Irish Cauldron of Rebirth that got Hijacked by Jesus, yes, but there is also an opposing school of thought that argues that the Holy Grail is a purely Christian concep—and there's evidence to support that. A third school of thought contends that the modern concept of the Holy Grail is a fusion of Christian and Celtic literature.
The TYPE-MOON Wiki's article on the Holy Grail of Fate doesn't say anything about a in-universe Jesus hijack, so I removed the example altogether.
