Archived Discussion

This is discussion archived from a time before the current discussion method was installed.

TheDad: I put Women in Refrigerators back up in it because that trope destroys female characters in ways other than garden-variety Chickification. Characters USUALLY end up on that page because of Chickification but not always (see Power Girl).

Khym Chanur: I thought that Die for Our Ship was a motive for Character Derailment, rather than a type of Character Derailment.

Adonic Meki: Shinji's case isn't so much Character Derailment as it is his character changing according to what happens. The Shinji Ikari page pretty much covers what happens.

Ununnilium: Does Aquaman really count? I thought it was: a.) Within the same series, and b.) Making the character worse.

osh: indeed. Everyone on the Superfriend was made a lot stupider and sillier. Aquaman being reimagined is not much different than the other conversions to better characters in the later DCAU.

Ununnilium: Thus, moved into here for the moment:

Aquaman's most recent form on Justice League Unlimited is vastly different from his animated appearances in the 70's and 80's. The friendly boy-scout clean cut image he offten appeared in has been completely reworked into an unshaven, long-haired, chest bearing warlord with a metal hook for a hand. In addition to bringing the animated version up to date (this is the look the comic book version has sported for some years now), it also serves to toughen-up a character that has long been reguarded as a harmless background player whose powers paled in comparison to others he fought with. But considered solely within the context of the animated shows, though, it is a major derailment.

Question: Does it matter if the change is temporary or permanent? If so, is there a term for when this occurrence is not permanent, contained within, say, one episode, for whatever reason?

Ununnilium: A single-episode Character Derailment would probaby be a Wall Banger or Writer on Board.

Looney Toons: Or an instance of the Idiot Ball.

Ross N: 'Buffy changed from a happy-go-lucky vampire killer to a mopey, emotionally distant whiner'. That may or not be true, but I'm not sure it qualifies as Character Derailment. She clearly never really recovers from the premature death of her mother and the other traumas of Season 5. After being unwillingly dragged out of the afterlife her reaction - even if unpleasant to watch certainly seems to spring from organic growth. Buffy's depression had a definite cause and wasn't just dropped on her from nowhere. J Random User: I'd also take issue with the idea that Spike raping Buffy was Character Derailment, or even inexplicable. Maybe people forgot because under the chip he basically acted more sarcastic than evil, but he was still a soulless monster. His one reference on love was Drusilla, a complete psychopath, of whom he once said "I'll tie her to a chair and torture her until she likes me again." His relationship with Buffy had been tumultuous and mutually abusive. What he did was absolutely in character—and so, given his experiences since joining the show, was his disgust with himself afterwards.

As for Amy, she never had any character to derail...no, seriously. In her first episode, most of what we saw of her was her mother. In her second, she puts a spell on a teacher to avoid doing homework, and then she's under the love spell. In her third, she shows up for a bit and turns into a rat. So just because we didn't know she was a magic druggie before...

Racha: Re: Willow. The main issue people have with the whole 'magic addiction' malarkey is unfortunate connotations. Joss and other writers on the show had said they liked to use magic as a metaphor for Willow and Tara's relationship/lesbian sex, and it allowed them to get Crap Past the Radar. To then turn around and change what was meant to be a hugely positive, sexy metaphor into something squalid and unsound, not to mention out of character for Wills in the first place ... Meh.

Nerem: I don't think Illidan counts as Character Derailment, as he is still the Dragon he always has been. Just because he's the new endboss by virtue of being the strongest enemy in the game doesn't mean he's a Big Bad. In fact, its explicitly pointed out that he's STILL just a small fry who thinks only of his own power, and its the Sun King who is more the Big boss.

Ununnilium: I'm gonna cut out:

Mashiro Kazahana, the chairwoman of Fuka Academy in Mai-HiME, was depicted as a caring, tragic figure. Her Mai-Otome incarnation, Princess Mashiro Blan de Windbloom, was instead a spoiled Bratty Half-Pint with a completely opposite personality.

...because it's not the same character. Even if one is the reincarnation of the other, it's still not the same.

Mhoram: Aeryn Sun seems out of place here to me. Yeah, she got pregnant, but the pregnancy passed much faster than normal and she was shooting at people right through the birth. She learned to stop thinking of herself as a soldier at all times, and more as part of a family; but that was true of all the characters, and I'd consider that actual character development, not derailment.

Mc Martin: Sonic Heroes isn't the first place Knuckles teams up with Sonic and Tails - He does so, more or less, in Sonic Adventure 2 as well. In Sonic Adventure 1 he varies between rival and ally.

Zephid: This is sometimes performed in aid of an Author Filibuster, such as certain scriptwriters attempting to imply that Gregory House (House MD) does not believe in evolution despite being a brilliant physician.

Someone mind either explaining that here or making an example that does? I haven't seen every episode of House, but I'm not recalling anything like that.

That Other 1 Dude: I removed several examples that feel under subtropes (Flanderization, Spikification) because that's redundant and annoying.

Andrew: I put the Scrubs example back because...well, because I think it fits. If you disagree, swell, but let's talk about it here before we start an Edit War.

That Other 1 Dude: As I just said, and it says in the actual paragraph it falls under Flanderization, and listing it twice is just annoying.

Andrew: Actually, no. What I wrote was that Flanderization was a part of his Character Derailment. His neediness, specifically, was Flanderized. But he's also become fairly stupid (which wasn't part of his original characterization) and is now a Butt Monkey, which was also not part of his characterization. You're zeroing in one portion of the derailment, which is another trope, while ignoring the other aspects listed in the example.

That Other 1 Dude: You could have made that a lot clearer. Anyway, he's still far from a Butt-Monkey, and just not knowing the difference between a Senator and Congressman does not make someone a complete idiot.

Andrew: I think the original was perfectly clear, but I expanded the "idiot" portion to indicate his issues extend beyond what are, to me at least, a fairly incomprehensible couple of moments.

Austin: I'm cutting out Zul'Jin, because he was never portrayed as a nice person. He wants to unite his people, which is good in principle, but most of the trolls are confirmed to be evil bastards.

Nezumi: Not to mention that Zul'Jin was one of the explicitly Always Chaotic Evil Forest Trolls, not the Jungle Trolls, which were only usually chaotic evil — the P Cs from World Of Warcraft come from the Darkspear tribe, a tribe that's noble and largely good, although still tied to their cannibalistic habits and dark magic. Zul'Jin is revered by the Darkspear tribe for the myth of the man — a symbol of hope and unification for the Trollish people — rather than the reality — a power-hungry savage with borderline-noble motivations, who's so blinded by his hatred of Elves for smashing the former Amani empire and taking their land that he's willing to call down the wrath of his former allies for the chance to eradicate the Blood Elves.

Kerrah: While I disagree, I'm not starting an edit war about this. Zul'jin was portrayed positively in Warcraft 2 and the novelisation, "World of Warcraft: The Tides of Darkness". I might want to remind you guys that the High Elves marched in and took the Trolls' holy lands from them, burned their reclaiming armies with magic and had been hunting them ever since. Zul'jin was shown as a leader who wished to have his people's lands back, but rejected the Horde's plea of alliance at first, until the Elves almost killed him and the orcs rescued him from execution.

Also: I rewrote the Kael'Thas entry, making it more clear and putting in the points of what his character was in WC 3.

Austin: Actually, I've noticed that sources disagree on who started the war. A lot say that the elves booted the trolls out, but one or two say that the elves simply settled down in a place where a troll city/temple used to stand, and the trolls attacked them for it. Even so, just because Zul'Jin wants what's best for his race doesn't make him a good person, if he's willing to kill everyone else to reclaim what the trolls lost thousands of years ago. Also remember that the trolls used to rule everything, so "getting their land back" wouldn't involve just a few hundred acres.

Austin: I felt I had to modify the Kael'thas entry. It was too subjective, and misleading on several points. The first time we know Garithos put him in a situation where he was likely to die, he was arrested right after that because the naga helped him, so to say he stayed loyal is inaccurate, and when Garithos had directly intended to execute him, that's when he split. The destruction of Quel'Thalas is more on the heads of Arthas and the Lich King than Kil'jaeden. It's unknown if that was part of his plan, or if Kil'jaeden just left everything to the Lich King and Archimonde.

Kerrah: Kil created the Lich King, fully knowing what he was being sent to do. He's very much responsible for everything the Scourge has done. And before you try to say "Kael doesn't know that", he heard Kil'Jaeden say "the Lich King, my creation" in Outland during the final cinematic of the Blood Elf campaign.

Now here's what I suggest as a sort of a compromise for the tFT part of Kael's entry:

"Furthermore, the leader of the Blood Elves, Kael'thas, was a person driven by the survival of his people and their honour in his initial appearance in Warcraft III: The Frozen Throne. He stayed loyal to the Alliance up until the moment his people were about to be executed en masse and joined with Illidan (who's only motive at that time was to take over the demon-dominated Outland and be left alone) because he believed it was the only way to save them from magic addiction."

How's that?

Charred Knight: The section on Illidan needs to be re-written, Illidan stopped giving a shit about the Night Elves a long time ago, if he did care he wouldn't of tried to recreate the Well of Eternity, he wouldn't have worked for the Burning Legion, and he certainly wouldn't have consumed the Skull of Gul'dan. He did what he did for himself.

Austin: I like the rewrite of the Kael'thas entry you proposed. As for Illidan, he's more multi-layered than that. Sometimes he does good things, sometimes he does bad things, sometimes he does bad things with good intentions. While his recreation of the Well was likely mainly motivated by his own addiction for magic, I also don't doubt that he sincerely believed that the night elves would need it if the demons came back, a reason he's given for recreating it. I'm not so sure he's not wrong, because even though many sources say the Legion was attracted to the magic of Azeroth, the Legion has been portrayed as wanting to destroy everything in the universe, with consuming magic as a side benefit. I would think that the obsession of "the one that got away" would've led them back to Azeroth one way or another.

Illidan's worked for the Burning Legion, but both times with benevolet intentions. Originally it was said he out and out betrayed the night elves, but this was changed in the War of the Ancients trilogy, where he was planning to betray them right from the start. The second time, he was commissioned by Kil'Jaeden to destroy the Lich King; despite the way he went about it, in principle that would've benefited the night elves and pretty much everyone else.

Kerrah: I made a sloppy edit of the Illidan thingie. I'll get back to it later (or someone else can have their hands at it).

I'd also like to note that every time Illidan did something awfully bad, he always had an excuse about how he was doing it for "the good of everyone". He truly believed that recreating the Well would make everybody clap and cheer, since in his mind magic was needed to defend Azeroth from the Legion should they ever return. His judgment was of course clouded by his addiction, but I think he still goes under the Well-Intentioned Extremist heading.

Charred Knioght: I deleted the stuff on the Blood Knights, as already explained, Kael'thas was the one who told them to use Muru in the first place. When he attack the Blood Elves, they figured out that not listening to him might be a good idea. Also no using the light does not corrupt you, other wise Uther, or Tirion would be massive dicks just like Illidan, and Kael'thas. Their is ONE NPC that even suggests that theirs a downside to the light. Just look at what happens to the Death Knights when they attack the Argent Dawn. The Lich King loses several Death Knights, and the Ashbringer becomes uncorrupted.

Kerrah: I once again edited the Kael'Thas entry. Please DO NOT add "it all makes sense because of demon magic" in that example without first giving us an official document saying demon magic can make a person into their exact opposite.

Roland: While I firmly believe Kael'thas is a meta example of Character Derailment in a truly tragic and shameful way, unfortunately it appears that there is evidence that fel magic can do exactly that.

http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/encyclopedia/371.xml

As stated, a newly-transformed demon's wishes and former personality are in most cases essentially irrelevant to what they become. In short, demons and fel magic are inherently corrupting and evil, often through little fault of their own. So, while Kael'thas was once a genuinely noble man, thanks to his increasingly desperate hunger for magic to save his people and his canonical near-death in the Eye (he lived only due to a demon priestess' ministrations) it is practically canonical that the heroic Kael'thas players witnessed during Warcraft 3 is nothing more than a memory. The Kael'thas we see in the Eye is twisted and corrupted, and the Kael'thas we see in Magister's Terrace is really nothing more than an impostor wearing his withered husk.

Nerem: I'm cutting out Lamia Loveless because half of it had no point in her being an Action Girl and it also misconstrues a lot of events to make her seem like a Distressed Damsel when really, she was Brainwashed and Crazy from them controlling her through her cybernetics. That at one point she breaks free from. And she also survived being hit by a powerful attack without her mecha. And kicked the party's ass multiple times. That's some distressed damsel. She's an Action Girl still, just one for the bad guys. ... also, I'm leery of the Dynamis example, as its not even the same Dynamis from SRWR, but an Alt Universe one.

Chris X: Well, what of the one with ODE? That qualifies her as one. And the fact that she needs to be rescued more than once, while the other Distressed Children only needs one... Any Action Girl does NOT get like that (just be serious. Was there a chance about any Action Girl who gets kidnapped in a worse spectrum than the daily basis of Distressed Damsel?). It was like after 'rescuing' her, Kyosuke was told by Juergen: "I'm sorry Kyosuke, but your Lamia is in another castle!" And while I'm still doubtful on this, most of the jobs about her breaking free is credited heavily on Axel. Almost as if she does nothing to break free on her own (would've accepted if she at least tries to, but is too hard and needs friends...)

And when does she kick your ass while brainwashed? She didn't. She only... err... do her Brainwashed and Crazy part by terrorizing verbally (since Duminuss told her so)

And yeah, about the one on Duminuss... it maybe an Alt Universe version. But for those who expected her to came up just like her SRW R version (like me), of course they'd be disappointed.

Redkun:

Suzaku from Code Geass goes from a Knight Templar, who believes that the only way to succeed is by selling out the rest of the world to protect Japan, to a borderline nutcase who can't make up his mind on anything. Over the course of a couple of episodes, decides to use a heavily addictive drug in a Rape The Dog incident, decides not to use the drug, thinks about NUKING Tokyo, decides not to nuke Tokyo (but brings the bomb anyway). The only cause of this is the death of a friend but considering that the death of his girlfriend, Euphemia, and the government blaming her as an insane monster effected his sanity less, it still makes no sense. The only real reason seems to be an excuse to create as many cliffhangers as possible.

Removed because it's absolutely loaded with misconceptions. It's less about Character Derailment and more about someone ranting about how they don't like The Scrappy.

It implies that nothing triggered his decision to drug Kallen. In fact, it was the murder of one of his close friends, which tempted him to violate his personal code of honour so he could stop (who he thought was) her murderer. Somehow, reasserting himself and deciding not to go through with it made the fans hate him even more than if he had drugged her.
He never considers using FLEIYA to nuke Tokyo. He shows reluctant from the get-go and only brings it along because it was equipped to his mecha by someone else.
The death of Euphemia affected his sanity less? It causes him- at that point a calm Wide-Eyed Idealist who actively avoided needless killing in battle- to go on a Roaring Rampage of Revenge against Zero and the Black Knights.

Charred Knight: I stated that Shirley's death turned him into an indecisive idiot. The problem isn't that he violaqted his honor code, its that the Director, and Writer simply ruined his character to move the plot. After Shirley's death he began doing stupid things like trying to drug a close friend, wondering if his going to have to use a nuke on Lelouch. Its not character development, it doesn't come off naturally. He let the Nuke get put on, are you seriously suggesting he has no idea how to prevent a missle from being launched or that he could have used a different unit (not like the Lancelot did any good anyway). Instead of fleeing like he was advised to he basically sacrifices his life for no apparent reason. He stopped making any sense as a character, and I don't know what to call that other than Character Derailment. He was great as a Knight Templar, and they should have kept doing that instead of having him keep on changing back and forth unnaturally. He was pretty well written in the first season, and was given an interesting plotline.

Rebochan: I don't even know where to start on the Kingdom Hearts entry because the whole thing really reads like somebody didn't understand the plot and is just venting about what they didn't like about it, rather than an actual example of Character Derailment.

h_v:

This was a slow process with Batman. From the mid-nineties until early 2006, the cool, gruff, Badass Batman slowly moved from "aloof and driven" to "frickin' jerk". DC eventually fixed this by having him realize how he was acting, and go on a year-long trip around the world with Dick Grayson (the first Robin) and Tim Drake (the current Robin). Note that this change was a reflection of the general comic book slide towards Nineties Anti Hero characters, and his change back is part of a general return to more positive heroes.

Is this really an example of Derailment? I mean, the change was slow, apparently taking about a decade, and the trope entry itself mentions that "organic growth does not necessarily mean 'benign growth'". The way the example looks to me (I'm only a casual comics fan, mind you) is that he developed in a darker direction, but eventually realized it was a bad idea and redeemed himself.

Personally, I think there's two options; a) someone who knows more about comics than I do adds more details to make it clear that this is character derailment, or b) we cut the example altogether. Thoughts?

I’ve taken out…

Jin Kazama started out in Tekken 3 as a young fighter trying to impress his grandfather, Manipulative Bastard Heihachi. For Tekken 4, he's broody, a bit of a loaner, and seeking to renounce his heritage and his family's signature fighting style (justified, as while bordering on life and death in Tekken 3, Heihachi puts a bullet in Jin's head and wrecks any semblance of trust Jin had in him.) This continues into Tekken 5, making him a very interesting, stand-out character, drawn into a conflict he is uncertain he'll win. Then came Tekken 6. That same character now has every negative quality that his grandfather and father are known for, and is taking the soulless Mishima Zaibatsu to war against the rest of the world. Way to go, Namco/Bandai.

Partly because it’s very long, and also because this has been foreshadowed to high heaven for five whole games. This is after all the guy with a Superpowered Evil Side, and Hwoarang’s ending in the last game featured Jin’s difficult to spell rival getting his butt wupped by said Evil Side. According to the Tekken 6 fluff this is more or less Canon (well the evil side and butt wupped bits anyway). Note his father, who was an Anti-Hero for two games before his own Superpowered Evil Side turned him into a Card-Carrying Villain. I expect a Tragic Monster plot twist here, and it's one that was obviously on the cards since the moment he was born.

Kosh_Naranek: I'm not sure I agree with the example of Herminone..Have none of you ever *met* a teenage girl going through puberty?

Anonymous Mc Cartneyfan: Cut this and put it here. Maybe this is Misaimed Fandom...

There's also an odd case of Character Development that some interpret as Character Derailment concerning Elliot. She started out as an insecure, unconfident but somewhat energetic girl who frequently suffered and constantly needed her friends to bail her out. Gradually, she starts becoming more independent, learning from her mistakes until about season five when she finally has enough confidence to stand one her own feet and escalates up the hospital career ladder. She much more well-adjusted and mature now. But wouldn't you know it? Now some people say she is a boring character now and seemed to have wanted her to stay something of a Woobie.

King Varian Wrynn, the long-lost monarch of Stormwind and the rising leader of the Alliance was introduced in World Of Warcraft: the Comic. There, he was The Stoic, always thinking instead of letting his emotions get in the way. He seemed to give all creeds and races a chance, befriending a blood elf among other things. When he is brought into the game in the upcoming expansion, a group of forsaken rebels kill his best friends and he gets so bad that he declares war against the Horde and attempts to kill its warchief, Thrall, despite knowing that they were in no way responsible for the act. He raves about having wanted to kill Thrall and destroy the orcs for the entirety of his adventure in the comics, despite a clear lack of any such want back then.

Okay, let's count the ways. First, the orcs kill his father and burn his kingdom. Then the orcs enslave him. Then the orcs invade his friends country. And how does he know it isn't Thrall's fault? It would be a derailment if he didn't hate the Horde.

I'm not here for a debate on Alliance vs. Horde. I'm here to point out a very obvious ommission from this troper's entry.

Kerrah: I am not here to debate on whether or not what he did was right. However, what happened to him is character derailment.

It's character derailment for his laid-back, non-racist, calm and open-minded personality of the comic to disappear just around the time that Warhammer Online comes out and Blizz need to compete on PvP content by adding actual war into their Warcarft.

It's character derailment for him to suddenly conjure up a need of killing all orcs, when all we knew of him before that moment says he harboured no such desire. Even worse than this, he tells that he always had this desire, which means that either he's lying, which doesn't seem very likely, or BLIZZARD MESSED UP, BIG TIME, BECAUSE THEY NEED PVP CONTENT TO COMPETE WITH WAR!

Furthermore, to counter the points you made,

Varian's never shown any kind of grudge for the second-war doings of the orcs. He was actually on his way to Theramore to have peace-talks with Thrall before his ship got sunk by Onyxia's lackeys.
An illegal group working underground within the Horde enslaved him. Shouldn't he murder himself for crimes human criminals do against others if he wants to punish Thrall for the crimes of orc criminals?
Which country was invaded? Lordaeron? That was the Scourge. Maybe it's new information to you, but the Lich King is not Thrall's lackey.
Varian knows the backstabbing was not Thrall's fault because Sylvanas and Thrall told him so, because Puttress was screaming "DEATH TO SYLVANAS" when Varian killed him AND because he basically walked in on Thrall executing Varimathras, who was truly responsible for the event.

Charred Knight: (Irrelevant flaming)

Psychotic Loner:

I don't know about the whole competing with WAR thing, but PVP has been around a lot longer than that, and in the lore, the war between the Horde and Alliance was, depending on your point of view, begun by Admiral Proudmoore or Thrall.

As for your points.

Was he discussing peace talks? Or just Alliance-Horde relationships? Is there any indication he wasn't really coming to yell at Jaina for not doing more to fight the evil, evil Horde?
There's a huge gladiatorial ring in Orgrimmar. Is Thrall so lazy he can't even see it? Then again, Thrall doesn't seem to notice a huge cavern filled with demons and warlocks. But is there any reason Varian wouldn't blame the whole Horde, like Thrall blamed the Alliance for his enslavement?
I'm speaking of Ashenvale, Warsong Gulch, etc.
Why would Varian believe Thrall or Sylvanas? Because Jaina Proudmoore (someone not really trustworthy) told him to? Would you believe an undead banshee who hates everything, and a leader of an empire that's at war with yours?
- And how, exactly, is Jaina Proudmoore "not really trustworthy?"

You know what? I could be all wrong, and I don't mind if I am. But for the entry to act like he has no reason to be angry is silly. That's why I had my little bit instead of just deleting the entry.

Charred Knight: (irreleveant flaming)

Psychotic Loner: Of course I'm not paying attention to you! I seek to talk about tropes, you want to get into a debate on the Alliance versus Horde. I talk about subjective character interpertations, you seem to think it's the same as objective events. I try to avoid conflict, you get emotional and assume I hate Warcraft just because I don't agree with you. Charred, calm down, all right? Kerrah can approach this without getting angry, follow his (her?) example.

Kerrah: His, thank you very much :P

There are sources indicating Varian was pro-peace before the events of WoW. He was going to have talks with Thrall, and that alone indicates that he wasn't intending to wipe out the entire orc race.
That gladiator ring isn't even used! Have you ever seen anyone in it? And how did you miss the quests where Thrall sends people into Ragefire Chasm to beat the heck out of demons and warlocks? AND Thrall hasn't blamed anyone but Blackmoore for his enslavement. He even offered a peaceful coexistence with them just before WC 3.
When since has Malfurion been Varian's friend? Anyways, the comic has a scene where Broll, the night elf druid travelling with Varian, says something along the lines of "they are cutting our forests!" and V responds: "Durotar is a desert. They need to get lumber from somewhere." Even I don't agree with that, but seems Varian does. See? That's just another case where he shows that he's not blindly against the orcs. If he had a desire to wipe them all out, he'd have reacted way differently.
Varian has never in the past showed any of this mistrust for Jaina that you seem to just love having. While I agree that Thrall and Sylvanas' words weren't that trustworthy at the exact moment, you completely circled around the Puttress and Varimathras issue. They aren't exactly being secretive about their rebellion status.

The version of the entry that I wrote before you stripped it down focused enough on the Character Derailment points. Never does it claim that the character he is being molded into could not react like he did. But all his previous characterisation indicated he's the kind of person who would not react like that. Not by a long shot.

Psychotic Loner:

Well, we're never told what the talk was about. It could be "Let's put away our differences and be allies" to "return to the camps or you're race will be hunted to extinction, monster"
Lot's of building's aren't used in the game. Doesn't mean they're abandoned in the Lore. I mean, why would the orcs build one of the largest structures in the game, and then never use it? Even the description of Orgimmar makes mentions of gladiatorial combat. As for the R Fc thing, I was actually agreeing with you, because it shows how Thrall can miss things. And all orcs I've seen in the game blames humanity for Thrall's enslavery, and other debatable "wrongs". Many orcs blame the entirety of humanity for "enslaving" them, or breaking a non existant peace treaty.
In the game, there are quests to kill Night Elves trying to protect the forest. It's not only cutting down trees.
Jaina Proudmoore is a Mary Sue. Period. No one will mistrust her, and she can get away with anything she does. She's an all powerful, all beautiful, all amazing person. Maybe Blizzard is getting tired of this, but I doubt it.

Maybe Varian was different before, but think about it. After returning to Stormwind he learns everything, through an Alliance viewpoint instead of Horde. He learns the Horde killed Admiral Proudmoore. He learned the orcs allied with the Forsaken and Blood Elves. He learned who Doomhammer really was, and how he was a coward instead of a hero. And most importanly, he was around his people who have probably been screaming for the blood of orcs for years.

As for your entry, I never changed it. I only added the bit about slavery. And that's all I want, really. You could very well be right, and I don't mind, because it increases my knowledge about the lore.

Kerrah: Seriously, this debate is starting to be less and less about Varian. But unfortunately, if I stopped here, that would translate into giving up. Therefore, I will only respond to half your points and then we can call it a draw, okay? So don't respond to these two.

I have to admit my point about the arena being unused ATM was a bit stupid, but to be more correct, the traditional orcish gladiator combat is between two guys who want to beat each others' brains out. The illegal, underground gladiator ring (Crimson Ring) that enslaves Varian uses slaves for fighting, which is probably why they're underground and illegal. Blaming Thrall for Varian's enslavement and treatment at those days is just willing blindness to invent something bad about him.
The Night Elves also get quests to kill orcs. You know what's that called, it's called war.

I tinkered the entry a bit and added it back. The ending basically translates to "even if you disagree about the amorality of his actions, this is so Character Derailment that it hurts". Feel free to edit it if you find it insulting or too subjective.

Psychotic Loner: *does not respond, as asked, and edits the entry to (hopefully) something satisfactory*

Chris X: I don't mean to prolong this discussion, but there is one thing I do not get on Psychotic Loner. For one, I do not think Jaina is a Mary Sue, since despite there are some Ass Pull successes... she has a share lots of failures. This makes me feel like... you just dislike her and can't seem to get over the fact that she has her flaws. I'll just leave it up to the God-Mode Sue page history list (Click 'All'), and if there are some things you do not get about my reasoning, feel free to drop your reasoning on my discussion page.

Qit el-Remel: Varian has been described as Thrall's opposite number. To me, he seems more like Grom Hellscream in beige facepaint. Compare his behavior in the comics to how he'll be acting in-game. It almost makes me ashamed to play Alliance (despite the fact that, contrary to stereotypes, I've seen much worse behavior from Horde).

As for Malygos...he's a Knaak character (and no one who likes Knaak's junk has any business calling Jaina a Mary Sue). He's asking for it.

Danel: In any case, the Varian and Malygos examples shouldn't even be here until some time after the expansion is actually released, and I agree that the Illidan example is a weak one. Pulled. And I still think that the Kael/Blood Elfs example needs editing - Kael's a Well-Intentioned Extremist who grows steadily more extreme, while the entire Burning Crusade expansion is the story of how the Blood Elves learn to move past their trauma in the Third War.

Austin: Just a few points. From what I've seen, Jaina was only a Mary Sue in the novel Cycle of Hatred, which is universially agreed to be by far the worst written Warcraft novel. I think her problem is is that she's a secondary character being treated like a main character, as the human campaign in Warcraft 3 focused on Arthas.

And I'll confirm that Thrall doesn not hold any grudges on humans. Many orcs do, but he doesn't. After Lord of the Clans, he's never shown unnecessary spite towards humans, and in Rise of the Horde, he even says that orcs tend to portray themselves as victims more than they should, and that he doesn't blame humans for not forgiving the orcs. The gladitorial ring in Orgrimmar is also certainly for willing orcs, not slaves. The RPGs mention that Thrall has a hero cult, and many orcs like to immitate his gladitorial past.

Kerrah: Malygos storyline is over. We did NOT discover he was being manipulated by Deathwing or anything like that. It was pure, unleaded Character Derailment. I'll add him and Illidan back tomorrow, but rephrase both examples.

(next day edit) I chose to put Malygos' actions in Wall Banger, though his sudden and unexplained extremeness here. Also, I removed Blood Elves as a race, because that entry was a bit weak.

Danel: Well, it certainly shouldn't be in both, and it's slightly dodgy here alone. I don't think anyone suggested that only manipulation/possession could possibly explain his actions here, and to argue that his behaviour is out of character because he allowed the Highborne to use arcane magic overlooks that there's a hell of a lot more use of magic than just one (large) faction of one race in one place doing it now. Also, that it didn't exactly end well that time, what with it sparking off the first Burning Legion invasion of Azeroth.

By my understanding of it, that's exactly his problem - the Highborne used arcane magic extensively, and this kicked off a chain of events that led to the Sundering, a massive invasion attempt and, indirectly, the almost complete annihilation of his brood (since Deathwing used the Burning Legion invasion as an excuse to create the Dragon Soul). Now, he looks around the world, and sees that magic is being used even more extensively. No wonder he's a bit put out, though I think everyone agrees that he's overreacted slightly.

As for Illidan, he was an arrogant bastard right from the off. I don't know the specifics since I never got into Burning Crusade raid content, but the opening cinematic always made sense to me as regards it all - he's declared himself Lord of Outland, somewhat heedless of the fact that there were already people living there with no desire to bow to him.

Chris X: On another subject, can anyone explain why the removal of Keiji and Masamune in Warriors Orochi? Somehow, it is just pretty jarring to see Masamune goes into a Zhang Jiao (him is to The Way Of Peace) for Orochi. As does Keiji going into full blown Blood Knight to the point his friends calls him out for it.

Greenygal: "This is sometimes performed in aid of an Author Filibuster, such as certain scriptwriters attempting to imply that Gregory House does not believe in evolution despite being a brilliant physician. However, House is a sarcastic, lying, bastard who was making an elaborate joke at the time."

...so, um, is it Character Derailment, or isn't it?

Austin: Pulled this example from the Warcraft entry

"This Troper would argue otherwise for Kael; in Warcraft III he showed very few redeeming features, being more then willing to not only betray those who he had worked with in past (the Night Elves) join forces with Illidan and follow his orders - which included aiding him in attemping to destroy one of Azeroth's continents. At best, Kael comes across as a Knights Templar who was rapidly Falling Off The Slippery Slope - and his devleopment into a power-hungry tyrant seems like a logical progression form that point."

If by "night elves" we mean "Maiev", she doesn't count. She had already betrayed her own by telling Malfurion that Tyrande was dead, and was going crazier. As for Illidan, as I already mentioned, when Kael joined up with him, Illidan had no motivation beyond taking over Outland to be safe from Kil'Jaeden. He only went back because Kil'Jaeden found him anyway. Finally, they were going to destroy the Frozen Throne, not Northrend. The continent was only in danger when Illidan was using the Eye of Sargeras, and that was because the spell was tearing the lands apart. At the end of the game, Illidan went for the Frozen Throne itself.

Danel: Another flawed and inaccurate Malygos example - that people keep adding it does indicate that a lot of people feel he's an example of this, but if we must put him here, I'd like to at least have a discussion in order to make it an accurate example. Here's the latest one, saved here:

Malygos and the rest of the Blue Dragonflight were originally charged with stewardship and command of all magic in the world, and enjoyed the company of wizards and other mortals interested in the arcane, and were considered eccentric but benevolent. However, prior to the games, Malygos went insane from grief after he accidentally helped construct an Artifact of Doom and watched almost his entire flight die at the hands of the artifact when he realized what he had done and tried to destroy it. He has subsequently gone sane according to the game's storyline and is trying to destroy the world, kill all magic users, and brainwash a red dragon into being his consort. Wall Banger barely begins to describe it.

Now, I have a few problems with this. As a red dragon NPC suggests in game, maybe they were slightly hasty in declaring that Malygos was totally sane again. Further, he's not trying to destroy the world - that's just an unfortunate side-effect that he's probably not totally aware of. His reasons for this are related to his decision to kill all magic users - he's decided that there are too many magic users, and this is likely to call the Burning Legion back - as it did jsut before he went crazy years ago - so he's decided that as the guardian of magic it's his duty to take the magic back. He's perfectly fine with those magic users who pledge fealty to him - and plenty have - and he's doing weird things with his own flight's eggs. And the brainwashing is because she (working with the player) had just killed his old consort and burned her corpse specifically to taunt him.

Kerrah: I agree to keeping this out of the page, if only because I'm tired of debating it. I'd like to point out, however, that Malygos seems to have a mysterious blind spot in his eyes for the Scourge. As I pointed out in the Wall Banger page, they live in his neighborhood and use demon magic (necromancy) constantly, and yet he doesn't even think they would be a good point to start his cleansing operation at. In addition, anyone with half a brain can see that a better way to fight the Legion would be to aid the mortals in fighting it instead of hindering them with a worldwide war.

Maybe it's not character derailment, but it's one of the worst plot points Blizz has pulled out its arse since Zul'Jin, Kael and Illidan's character defilements in Burning Crusade.

dunerat: i wasn't sure where to put this in the Wall of Text above me, but Varian's trip to Theramore being purposed as peace talks is canon per the quest text of the "The Missing Diplomat" quest chain. Which, oddly enough, is still in place and completable, despite the "missing diplomat" having been found and returned to his place as the King of Stormwind. And yes, the diplomat is confirmed as Varian by that same quest text.

Okay, I did some editing on the Final Fantasy VII section. From now on, people should save that kind of talk on whether or not the entry counts as Character Derailment for the disscusion.

Greenygal: Deleted "*** Much of the "character development" experienced by Magneto was due to alterations made by Moira Mac Taggart when he was de-aged (specifically, his magnetic powers also affected his body and mind, driving him batshit insane, Moira somehow made it so it was not so). Well before Morrison took over the title, Magneto had realized the extent of her "manipulation" and was a fairly un-ambiguous villain."

Because Moira made it clear that what she was trying to do did not work, and that Magneto's actions were unaffected by it.

Broken Chaos: Nuked the following from just below Heroes. Talk about it here or on the forums, not in the main page.

Incidentally, this troper started Heroes with Season 3, loved it, and is now hooked it and has seen every episode as of Valentine's Day 09.

Bob: There has been a YKTTW suggesting the creation of an article for "The Dark Side will result in Motive Decay": Corrupted Into Forgetting Motives

. When the article is launched, can we just move Illidan and Kael'Thalas there and forget about this silly Edit War?

Sackett: Removed this:

Kaname from Full Metal Panic does some things that seem very un-Kaname-like in the novel "Continuing On My Own." One example is jerking away and acting like Sousuke was a monster when the evil Paolo Leonard makes a ridiculous comparison of telling her that Sousuke is worse than a serial killer that killed 35 people, since Sousuke killed more (ignoring that Sousuke was working honorably for an army that tries to ensure peace in the world) - this being during the time when he most needs her comfort and is especially feeling insecure. This goes against how she acted with him in the first season, where he asks her if she's afraid of him (which he says would be natural, since she must think he's a monster), yet she didn't even flinch and touched him gently, telling him she believes and trusts him. And speaking of trust, she becomes extremely resentful and distrusting of him while he's protecting her, to the point where she throws a huge hissy fit and says very cynical, hurtful things to him (despite the fact that he was just as scared as her - he was just putting on a strong and determined front). It gets to the point where she actually doesn't trust in him at all and ends up betraying him and going with Leonard to Amalgam. All this is supposed to be coming from the determined, strong girl that managed to best a trained assassin using only a taser and bathrobe.

Mainly because I think much of this matches Kaname's character very well. Kaname tries very hard to pretend that the whole violent military side of Sousuke isn't "real". While all her previous exposures have been in instances when that violence is used to protect her and those she cares about. She doesn't want to think about that fact that her boyfriend has killed so many people. (And Sousuke wasn't always working for Mithril- he himself thinks that he hasn't always been that picky about who he killed). The above also ignores that immediately after that flinch Kaname defends Sousuke, saying herself that it's different, and that Sousuke isn't like the serial killer at all. Finally, Kaname does not betray Sousuke because she doesn't trust him, she goes with Leonard because Leonard was about to kill Sousuke, and it was the only thing she thought she could do to save his life. So I don't see any character derailment at all. Now later books I understand amnesia comes in- so her character changes then, but not at this point.

Where is the current picture from? It's hilarious and brain-breaking at the same time.

Elephant Bones: I pulled it from this site. I thought it was an amusing and appropriate example of the trope.

Crowley: Ah, thanks!

Removed this:

A great deal of this occurs with the last two novels of the Harry Potter series, particularly with the once strong-headed, caring, understanding, and passionate Hermione becoming much too emotional, jealous, and disregarding of her main priorities and objects of concern.

Because it's really not true. I mean Character Derailment bacause...she acted like a teenage girl? And when did Hermione EVER disregard her main priorities and concerns? She supported Harry, fought against Voldemort and for the rights of the oppressed and kept up her grades to perfection throughout. Just because she got *gasp* jealous of Ron for a while doesn't mean she still wasn't passionate (jealousy is passion after all,right) headstrong and understanding. She saved her friends asses and KICKED ass several times, ESPECIALLY in the last book (Magic Bag of Holding...saving Harry from the Snake...keeping her head under torture...badass Disapparatng for Great Justice...) She even chose staying with Harry to save the world over the MAN SHE LOVED. If that's not having the right priorities, I don't know what is.

Wait...I've got it! She chose Ron to snog over Harry! Oh, are those the priorities you're talking about? I forgot shipping was the center of the books, and that if Hermione didn't choose they guy YOU have a crush on, her character was derailed, no matter how heavily forshadowed her choice was! Silly me!

Also took out the part about JKR's females being crap while her males are "perfect". Because...no. Her males are flawed, her females are flawed. Hermione's as developed as the rest of the trio. Mc Gonagall is developed. You can whine about Ginny all you want, she's a minor character but she can stand toe to toe with Harry, she's brave, and she has flaws like the rest. Luna is Luna. Just because a character does something YOU don't like doesn't make it chatacter derailment. This goes beyond Your Mileage May Vary and into biased bilge.

Seven Of Diamonds: And Hermione was always emotional. She's the brain but she's not The Stoic, she's always had this tendency to burst into tears and throw her arms around Harry and/or Ron. That's happened in about every book since the first one, it was no surprise when the big kiss ended up as something similar. If anything she got a lot of Character Development in the last books by learning to think on her feet, which she was completely hopeless at in the first one (ex. Are you a witch or not). This is probably a case of somebody confusing book Hermione with movie Hermione, as well as having twisted her into a Canon Sue in their head.

And it's funny about the male characters being "perfect" because it reminds me of a discussion where they gender-flipped all the characters and were able to come up with a feminist rant for each and every one: Negative images of femininity in the popular Harriet Potter series

Rebochan: I did some minor pruning in my never-ending holy war against This Troper. But I did also pull this entry:

An example from [1] is Tonks She was introduced in Book 5 as a Plucky Comic Relief pink-haired cop Action Girl — only to undergo some massive Chickification in Book 6, becoming mopey and whiny because Lupin wouldn't date her. Made all the worse come Book 7, where this editor came away with the strong impression that the relationship was thrown into the last two books so that Tonks and Lupin could spawn a kid so that the series could begin and end with a little orphan boy. Having been quite fond of the rather kickass Tonks from Book 5, This Troper was a bit glum about this.
- In JKR's defence, Luna Lovegood more than makes up for her failures.

This seemed to be a giant rant that one person had about Tonks. I also didn't really see any derailment there. Tonks is more than a little underwritten, but it's not derailment to show that she can in fact be upset over matters in her personal life when this is the first time we've seen much in her personal life. Granted, it's been a while since I read the books, but this never came off to me as actual derailment, just a plotline that barreled ahead at top speed because the supporting cast was insanely large.

Patrick: Removed this:

Amy's transformation to a "cartoony supervillain" may have something to do with being trapped as a rat for three years. She had already started doing morally dubious actions, such as manipulating her teacher, add to that years of resentment, and some more power, and it seems easy enough to see how she became evil. Willow is more interesting, she had previously shown the willingness to use magic as a short cut, or when angry, and became more and more self-contained; while the physical aspects of the addiction were never shown, some of the mental signs were visible in season four. Buffy is very easy to explain. She had just been pulled from heaven back to Earth. I know that that does not seem like much, but imagine being completely happy, and then having that taken away from you. Beyond that, she was trapped in a coffin, had to claw her way out, and saw her home town destroyed. These events would have been enough to traumatize anyone. Feeling depressed about that seems normal, not wangsty.
- Alternative Character Interpretation suggests that Amy was never brought back at all, and one of Willow's attempts to restore her shifted a demon into her body instead. Thus explaining her sudden personality shift as well as her inexplicable knowledge of the demonic social scene that should have been three years out of date even if she knew about it at all.

Cambdoranononononono: I removed a big chunk of of the Total Drama Island stuff. You might be able to argue against the Trent thing, but it's a Justifying Edit. I didn't remove the example because most people I've seen agree with it, and one noticeable change (the whole "nine" thing) was unrelated to Gwen. I removed the latter example and similarly accompanying Justifying Edit because it seems like one fan overreacting to some scenes/gags that grouped Lindsay and Beth together. Her characterization otherwise hasn't really demonstrated this and still seems to be based on naivete and social awkwardness, and again this seems to be the opinion I've seen from most fans.

What's odd about that? People lose their heads over love or infatuation all the time. Trent may not have lost his original personality, it's just that his insecurity about Gwen, whom he holds so dear, is making him anxious to "know" that he still has her approval.

Beth also started out the unsure nerd with glasses and braces on Total Drama Island. In Total Drama Action, she finally had her braces removed and apparently, her personality as well. She has progressed to nothing more than an uglier version of Lindsay since the two are now bff's and have the combined IQ of a flea.
- Not so, is it? Lindsay has gotten a little brighter, but Beth has only become more confident, not dumber.

Rebochan: I just pulled several entries that weren't covered by this trope at all, and rather than cram why into the page history, I'm putting it here. If I'm lucky, someone will actually read it.

Cloud Strife in Final Fantasy VII: Advent Children went from someone who had become a confident, optimistic and determined man who cared deeply for his friends by the end of the orginal game to a Wangsty loner, attacking himself over guilts the previous game had him assuage, and refusing to so much as answer his sexy mobile phone in order to talk to the people he'd previously been so open and warm to (and, according to the bonus material, lived with). It was Hand Waved as him having a degenerative disease, but for some, it didn't quite excuse the behaviour.
- Your mileage may vary. I always thought that once Sephiroth was out of the picture, Cloud would no longer have anything to distract him from his grief and guilt. I mean, he spent all the time he logically should have spent mourning over Aerith bitching about Sephiroth and their vendetta, so it just kind of seemed like he was focusing his angst into anger, to me.
- Cloud also had a lot of reason to be upset, not the least of which was the degenerative disease he was suffering from that explicitly had severe depression as a symptom. It's not a Hand Wave if it is actually part of the plot - Denzel, the other major character in the film, had the same disease and the exact same emotional state as Cloud. Other sufferers of the disease were shown as being the same way. A Hand Wave would mean nobody ever addressed it at all, not integrating the entire thing into the movie's plotline and referencing it.

Oh god, where do we start with this? On top of the usual assumption that Cloud the depressive maniac should be magically cured of his neuroses because he beat up his rival (because after all, There Are No Therapists), there's a lot more to this. Cloud actually got so depressed because on top of the degenerative disease (don't forget Denzel acted the same way after getting it himself) and the fact that his failure to help Denzel reminded him of something else he'd failed to do. On top of that, he's personality changes are addressed in the script - Tifa basically chewed him out and told him to get over it. Which he does. The fact that this keeps getting natter saying exactly this should show it's not an example of this trope.

Cloud is perhaps at his worst derailment in the Kingdom Hearts series, in which, unlike Advent Children, his Wangst has NO excuse or explination, and he is perpetually acting as The Stoic and is obsessed with Sephiroth and nothing else. Dissidia, on the flip side, did a very good job in doing Cloud right, as he much more closely resembles his original characterization.

Since the Cloud in Kingdom Hearts is a completely different person, this isn't relevant. Leon and Squall are two different people too, and Leon differs quite a bit from Squall. This shouldn't be a surprise that the Cloud of Kingdom Hearts is similarly different in characterization from the one in Final Fantasy VII.

Similarly Sephiroth, formerly capable of epic Machiavellian Mind Screws, has been reduced to simply appearing and acting Badass for a tacked-on tough boss fight (in Advent Children, his cameos in the Kingdom Hearts series, and to a small degree in Dissidia), seemingly because the creators are assuming the fanbase just wants to see him kick ass.

Let's see. In Advent Children, he's pretty much dead except for a vengeful spirit. The one in Kingdom Hearts is a different person. The one in Dissidia is in a situation a bit out of his control - Kefka's a nasty schemer too, and he still isn't on the same level in Dissidia either.

Riku in Kingdom Hearts. In the first game his ambition, independence and pro-activity firmly cast him as an awesome Anti-Hero/Villain dedicated to saving Kairi no matter what the cost. That doesn't really work out. Thanks also in due part by the Reverse/Rebirth mode of Chain of Memories, his independent spirit is all but absent in the sequel, where for the vast majority of the game he is content to play the role of the Black Cloak-wearing Mysterious Protector and wait for Sora to do the real hero work.
- On the other hand, the aforementioned hiccup in his plans from the first game - and the resultant side effects - explain his decision to stay as far away from the main characters as possible. His embarrassment at turning into Ansem/Xehanort/whatever, though extremely annoying, is almost justifiable.

So...Character Development. Kay. Not covered by this trope.

The revelation that he had transformed into Ansem was a Wall Banger because Kingdom Hearts and Reverse/Rebirth show that Riku already has an alternative form for when he consumes himself in darkness. It felt like it was added in just to provide a Shocking Swerve.

Not derailment, and somewhat explained anyway since the game did address the events of Chain of Memories. Wasn't it the length of exposure anyway?

Of course, all of this was erased in the magical explosion at the end of Kingdom Hearts 2. Which really rendered all the work Riku did in Chain of Memories obsolete. (Since his dark powers were severely watered down afterward. Example: He tries to warp everybody out of The World That Never Was when things get ugly, but it doesn't work. King Mickey offers the explanation that Riku "belongs to the Light" now.)

Still not derailment...

Axel went from a cocky Manipulative, Magnificent Bastard in Chain of Memories to a wimp who got his ass handed to him easily, had an annoying Catchphrase and an unhealthy obsession with a fifteen-year-old boy.
- Not to mention that, after masterminding a Xanatos Roulette in Chain of Memories , he was surprisingly incompetent in Kingdom Hearts II. He failed to kidnap Kairi twice and then Saix did it successfully. He was cut short of revealing Xemnas' master plan to Sora and then Saix does it in more detail. And last came his Heroic Sacrifice, which, while touching, probably didn't need to be done in that situation.
- Though, if you know the plot of 358/2 Days, you find that Saïx, the one who thwarted him at every turn was his co-conspirator within the Organization, and so would realistically be the one capable of out-Xanatosing Axel.
- His obsession with Roxas is at least partly due to the fact that something about Roxas and Sora can cause Axel to feel real emotions; which is a pretty frickin' big deal to Nobodies.
As stated above, Cloud and Sephiroth in Kingdom Hearts are pretty different from their canon counterparts. This is partly justified in that Kingdom Hearts is an Alternate Continuity.

Since Roxas wasn't even introduced in Chain of Memories and later games explained Axel's fixation on him and his drop in effectiveness, it's not derailment, it's development. Just somewhat out of chronological order.

Phoenix Wright gets stung by this in Apollo Justice. He goes from a caring, naive, semi-cynical lawyer into a jerk. Ema Skye is a few steps away, but it's justified, and she shows her old self when science is involved.
- Phoenix's change is pretty justified when you consider that not only has it been seven years, but they were some pretty soul-crushing years. And in the end he turned out to be The Chessmaster so I'd call that a win.

Both Phoenix and Ema developed this way over time - Emma is bitter that she can't pursue her chosen career, Phoenix is a different person because he just went through seven years of hell. That's character development, not derailment. Phoenix also changed his goal to actually reforming the court system from its foundation to better help people anyway, so it's not like he completely changed - he just found another way to do it.

Larry Butz went from a good-natured, if slightly dim, friendly guy to an insufferable Butt-Monkey that Phoenix "wouldn't call a friend"...despite the fact that he said he was in the first game.
- Well, don't forget that in Larry's case, the friendship may have been rather strained by the fact Phoenix discovered the traumatic childhood event which led him into becoming a defense attorney was Larry's fault.

Larry was a sufferer of Flanderization, but he's not acting completely contrary to his previous characterization. Also, even in the first game, Larry wasn't exactly a totally reliable friend - remember how hard it was to get him to testify for Edgeworth's case?

In Super Smash Bros Brawl, Ike claims "you'll get no sympathy from me", this contrasts heavily with the fact that he gives pretty much everyone (up to and including his father's killer) his sympathy in the two games he stars in. However, Ike does have some similar lines (i.e. "You'll get no mercy") in Radiant Dawn when he has to fight former allies.

So in other words, trash talking is in character. That's not this trope.

Also from Brawl, Falco, for some reason, decides to use the vehicle he has openly expressed contempt for. All for no reason other than the devs were too lazy to give him a unique Final Smash....
- Possible lampshading - when he summons the tank, he complains about it, shouting, "Personally, I prefer the air!", and giving him the landmaster with the best flight capabilities.

Not this trope when he's still acting in character....

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Blaggerbat: I removed the following from the Fullmetal Alchemist example.

Scar is treated much better in the manga. He has a slow change of heart from "I want to kill all state alchemists" to "I want to change Amestris from within", prompted by an Enemy Mine moment, a talk with a mentor, and being confronted by Winry', of whose parents he killed in the manga.

This page is about showing examples, not about comparing the treatment of characters from alternate continuities. If you want to discuss it in the proper place, Take It To The Forums.

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Removed this Angel example due to the fact that it took place over at least five years, was well and rationally developed, and part of it included demonic possession and Mind Rape.

Let's not forget Cordelia, who went from being The Libby of Sunnydale to a poor struggling actress with a new outlook on life. And let's not get into the whole being controlled by Jasmine business. And after her coma, she somehow became an Action Girl.

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