Main Trope Makers Discussion

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05:52:03 PM Jan 13th 2017
edited by vorpalgirl
First, I will not deny that Don Quixote is in many many ways a Trope Maker given its early publication and influence.

In fact, I feel like an addition could easily be made to the DQ entry for what it's a Trope Maker for, because I'd also credit it as either the Trope Maker or something very close/connected to it, of the genre that came to be called Fan Fiction. See, before Don Quixote, there were, yes, plenty of oral storytelling and folklore things going on with characters being expanded on by various people over time, and scholars like Henry Jenkins like to credit these folk tales as the Older Than Dirt prototypes/precursors/perhaps Ur Examples for the genre that is now fanfic, since those things came about pre-copyright laws and nobody cared and the practice of "using existing characters" was therefore common.

But what happened after Don Quixote included not just "somebody doing something with these folk heroes that everybody uses", but literally taking a copyrighted work known to be from a specific, then-contemporary person, and making an unauthorized derivative work of fiction based on that very specific work by that very specific person (i.e. Canon). The unauthorized sequels that others wrote for Don Quixote were even the subject of Cervantes' ire, causing him to write a real and official sequel (again: an official Canon!) out of spite when he had originally decided not to, just to contradict the things these unauthorized works repeatedly "got wrong"! I believe (I'll have to check) that he even tried to sue the writers of them, kicking off an on-again, off-again trend of creators trying to sue fan fiction writers for copyright infringement (well before the term was ever coined much less used for what we now use it for). So woo! We have a fun little bit of history that connects DQ in a Trope Maker way to an entire modern genre of fiction and therefore countless subgenres as well! I will probably add something like this after I've discerned what aspects it's the Trope Maker of (I'm guessing, the establishment of a "canon" work and the differentiation between "modern works that are legally thorny to create derivatives of" vs the Public Domain material any could use - I'll see about doing a pithier version of that description, heh).

I also agree DQ can indeed be called the first "modern" novel...however, you might be wondering why I kicked this comment off with "I will not deny that...", yes? That is because while Cervantes may have modernized the novel, the acknowledged "first novel" in format - and influential as heck in Asia, no less - was Genji Monogatari ("The Tale of Genji") which is from Japan and predates DQ quite a bit if I'm not mistaken.

I was debating whether to edit the bit on DQ with saying that the actual "novel" format's Ur-Example was Genji but - in actual fact Genji was so popular it basically single-handedly established the novel as a valid fiction format? And since it's the earliest known such example, that goes beyond Trope Codifier into "Trope Maker" (and simultaneous Ur-Example? Hm. Not clear if there's always a difference, or if Ur Examples can be Trope Makers too, just like how a Trope Maker is sometimes though not exclusively a Trope Codifier from the sounds of it?).

Anyway. This all means that while I would argue for retaining Don Quixote as the Trope Maker for "modern" styles of novels (and all the tropes that it originated), I would also like to propose Genji Monogatari as the Trope Maker for the novel itself in general. You know, because Don Quixote is the modernization of the format, but Genji is the one that established it? I don't think this should be controversial but I wanted to make a note of this well before editing because I know the Index itself notes that it's easy for an entry to become controversial but I feel that if well-written, that addition won't be if people know the background of why?

That and I wanted to get these thoughts out and organized a little so that I can be short-and-sweet by the time I add it, if someone else doesn't get to it first.
11:49:05 AM Dec 27th 2013
edited by
DragonSlayer and Hydlide are older than Zelda. There's also a belief that Dragon Quest was influenced as well. However the guy who invented Dragon Quest (Yuji Horii) says that Ultima and Wizardry were his inspiration, despite whatever similar game play mechanics can be found with DragonSlayer. Since there isn't any reason for him to lie about that, because he admits the idea wasn't originally his, and DragonSlayer doesn't doesn't do the "encounter enemy menu battle" that DQ is famous for, I don't think it justifies being the proginator of Eastern RPG.
06:06:49 PM Jul 15th 2013
Why is this article title plural?
12:07:47 AM Dec 28th 2013
Because it is an index, not a trope.
04:54:33 AM Mar 5th 2013

Shin Megami Tensei is listed as the Trope Maker for Mons. As for Gotta Catch Them All, it's an Older Than Dirt trope!
01:04:50 PM Dec 26th 2013
edited by
Adding it back in. The image on the Mons is Pokemon. Pokemon sells MILLIONS of more copies that Shin Megami Tensei ever did. It's a multi-billion dollar enterprise. If you ask some random non-gamer what a Mons was, they'd cite Pokemon before they'd ever imagine Shin Megami Tensei existed: Pokemon is a household name of gaming for those who don't even care about gaming. When a company wants to make a cheap Mons knockoff, they copy Pokemon because that what defines the genre. Mons released before or at the same time as Pokemon (like Digimon and Shin Megami Tensei), are called Pokemon ripoffs by the mainstream because its Pokemon they think of first. Pokemon is the Trope Maker. Shin Megami Tensei is a Ur-Example.
01:31:54 PM Dec 26th 2013
edited by
Yes... I know... double post. Been having PM's with Lord Go. Thought it better to do the discussion here. Let's chance for name calling or subtle insults. Let's start with Pokemon, and seeing how that goes, I'll deal with Dracula. As per the page intro: a Trope Maker is the first unambiguous example of a particular trope. Pokemon is the definition of that for Mons. Shin Megami Tensei does not define what the average person calls a Mons - nor is it the standard new titles compare themselves to. The game system and mechanics Pokemon uses (though may not have invented) are the defacto standards of the genre.
01:49:50 PM Dec 26th 2013
Uh. Trope Codifier and Trope Maker aren't the same thing.

Shin Megami Tensei is the Trope Maker here as far as the Mons genre goes. Popularity has exactly nothing to do with it.
01:50:42 PM Dec 26th 2013
edited by
Nargrakhan: To be a Trope Maker, it doesn't matter how popular or successful something is, or what the average person thinks. Many Trope Makers are comparatively unknown, even obscure to the general public.

I would say that you are confusing Trope Maker with Trope Codifier, but then again popularity is not in itself what makes a Trope Codifier (what matters is impact on the works that come after).
03:18:31 PM Dec 26th 2013
edited by
Very well then. In that case, I see at least two or three items that aren't what they're supposed to be. Someone posted Ah! My Goddess as the first celibate hero harem. That is wrong. AMG was published in 1988. The first celibate hero harem is Ranma ˝. It was published in 1987. The earliest harem manga was Urusei Yatsura (same creator: Rumiko Takahashi is the mother of the Japanese harem genre). It was started in 1978. The hero in that series wasn't celibate though.

I need to double check on publication dates for the other items.
03:58:08 PM Dec 26th 2013
edited by
Why is Varney the Vampire listed as the trope maker? The Vampyre was an earlier work and bestseller during 1819. It's public domain for anyone to read:

Lord Ruthven was a daywalker but he drank blood, was an undead nobleman, and had seductive powers. Cornerstone of cliche vampires... minus daywalking. Though the original Dracula was a daywalker too: he just wasn't uber powerful in sunlight. It's a misconception he turned to ash from it (or rather a later change by fans).
06:13:56 PM Dec 26th 2013
edited by
Tokimeki Memorial did some momentous things for galge, but was not the first of its kind. Night Life does predate Princess Maker, but looks and plays NOTHING like what people call a galge. The only similarities Night Life has with galge are: [1] Night Life was for computer and [2] the goal of Night Life was to see women. That's not a galge anymore than Leisure Suit Larry is.
01:44:52 AM Dec 27th 2013
edited by
Agree on The Vampyre; can't contribute to the rest. Anyway, we seem to have an agreement on the definition of Trope Maker.
06:21:05 PM Nov 22nd 2012
I don't get this article. I do know that Kraftwerk and Yellow Magic Orchestra were at least semi-trope makers of Synthpop, but says Devo was also. Was that fact an example of Critical Research Failure?
06:40:47 AM Oct 31st 2011
I call BS on "My So Called Life" ranking as "the first modern drama on TV." It's an enjoyable enough show — but how was the subject matter any more poignant or relevant or the perspective any more postmodern than say, "The Wonder Years." It's just not. It was produced in 1995, for peat's sake.
08:15:46 AM Oct 14th 2013
Agreed heartily. Well made show, but absolutely nothing about it was anywhere near worthy of mention in this page. I remove it.
05:40:37 AM Oct 8th 2011
So Trope Codefier is what makes people say 'this a trope and such n such work is using this trope', while Trope Maker is the first MODERN use of the trope?
07:59:18 PM Aug 8th 2011
Deleted all these examples, as they're completely unelaborated (I don't deny Doctor Who, it's just my knowledge of it mostly lies from 2005 onwards)

08:27:16 AM Nov 2nd 2010
Gentlemen, what is the Trope Maker for graphic novels?

The previous example:

Would Will Eisner's A Contract with God a better example? It was originally published in complete form in 1978. Maus started off as a serialized strip and the first part was only collected in 1986. And neither book actually created the label or format of "graphic novel".

03:04:53 PM Oct 12th 2010
on the note of Varney the Vampire as the Trope maker. it is true that it heavily inspired Stoker but other then that was of very little merit in the public eye. I would argue that Dracula really was the full-fledged use in that it solidified vampires into the public conciousness but this is a matter that is very debatable. discuss?
08:46:21 PM Sep 16th 2010
in western animation, wouldn't the flinstone count as the first animation show directed to adults? of course i'm not really sure so i'm asking

also, batman: the animated series could count as a super-hero series with aiming to both kids and adults
07:21:17 PM Oct 12th 2010
Cartoons were actually hardly ever directed at kids until the 1960's...
03:48:16 PM Mar 27th 2010

That just makes it a Trope Namer. It could be argued that Lost is a Trope Codifier for a certain style of show based on the Myth Arc, but Twin Peaks did it first.
03:42:40 PM May 7th 2010
Would not Pink Floyd be more appropriate for Electronic than Kraftwerk?
01:31:12 AM May 8th 2010
I think Pink Floyd was working with an Unbuilt Trope at least at the time they were working with it. Kraftwerk, on the other hand, knew they were actively creating what they were, which makes them the Trope Maker.

It's sort of like, yes, there were musicians that wore makeup and dressed androgynously in Japan for centuries (Kabuki artists) but they belonged to an artform and tropes of their own, and there were rock musicians that adopted the effects of androgyny and makeup and stylishness (Kiyoshiro Imawano for one of the earliest examples) and that played hard rock and heavy metal/experimented with shocking behavior and lyrics (Loudness). None of them were the Trope Maker for Visual Kei, though, because none of them would identify as Visual Kei or even knew that they were laying the groundwork for X Japan and Buck Tick, who are the recognized Trope Maker and first Trope Codifier for Visual Kei.

IMO, "doing it first" doesn't make a Trope Maker (even if it makes an original artist ;) ), "doing it first and knowing they are doing something different than a previously recognized thing" does.
08:10:29 AM Mar 15th 2010
" Rashomon — For The Rashomon, of course."

There were no stories-from-multiple-perspectives before 1950? Trope Codifier, I'd say, especially in terms of cinema specifically.
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