Lost And Found You've got this trope sticking in your mind. You can remember the general idea, and maybe an example or two, but you'll be damned if you can remember what the thing's called, and the search function turns up nothing relevant. Ask about it here.
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TheMartianGeek1 Medium: Videogame
08:55:38 PM 17th May 2013
Is there a trope for a relatively easy and nonthreatening area near the middle of the game, sort of like a cross between Disc One Final Dungeon and Green Hill Zone (Red Hill Zone? Disc Two Ghibli Hills? I don't know...)? It wouldn't necessarily have to be a Breather Level, just something with a fairly bright and cheery atmosphere that's easier than the rest of the game but still harder than what came before. I'm thinking something like, say, World 4 in the original Super Mario Bros. and Yoshi's Island, possibly World 3 in SMB 2, and possibly Bumpsy Plains in Mario & Luigi: Bowser's Inside Story (though that one might be a bit too early on to qualify properly). World 4 in YI would probably be the best example here.
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StevenT Medium: Videogame
08:52:42 PM 17th May 2013
Is there a trope for where a puzzle in a video game has multiple ways to solve it?
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08:45:49 PM 17th May 2013
Is there a trope for when two characters are discussing something secret rather quietly, and then one of them says something unrelated really loudly to make it appear to others that they're having a normal conversation?
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08:42:00 PM 17th May 2013
Is there a trope where someone is afraid to try something or otherwise unable to do it, when suddenly circumstances force them to try it and it works? (Some examples I'm thinking of include a paralyzed character jumping up and running in order to save someone's life, and a dragon character being afraid of flight until his friend is falling).
07:57:27 PM 17th May 2013 edited by timefightscrime
A trope so common, I just *know* there had to be a page for it somewhere...
When we're introduced to our main cop character for the first time, he always seems to be in some state of undress in a woman's bedroom. His phone rings, and she tells him not to take it, but he *has to*.
Cop Hero: Yeah? ...What? When? ...I'm on my way.
And he runs out.
I feel like 1 in every 3 procedural TV shows and movies begin with this kind of character introduction.
I'm looking for something where a character carries something with them on their adventure for its symbolic significance.
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07:27:14 PM 17th May 2013
I am sure that there is a trope for this because it is so common in anime and hero stories (comics/movies).
What is the trope called where a character has essentially Super Toughness or Nigh Invulnerability, but then will be damaged or knocked unconscious by a much, much weaker attack. This is usually either played for comedy when it is a significant other that hits them or it is done for a plot need.
For example, the hero gets into a fight with another powerful foe. He is thrown through brick walls, driven into the earth hard enough to leave a crater, and still keeps on fighting. However, a few scenes later he says something stupid and his girlfriend (who doesn't have the same power as the foe) hits him once and knocks him out.
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04:07:17 PM 17th May 2013 edited by Bisected8
Do we have a trope for the idea of someone being treated as effectively dead (or something that would bring it about being considered the same as killing them)? e.g. Having their personality rewritten/memory erased, being lobotomised or otherwise ceasing to exist without actually dying.
The nearest I can think of is That Man Is Dead, but that's not an example all the time.
No, I mean that the person as they existed as an individual's actually "gone" (and thus effectively been killed without death in the biological sense), not that everyone's just treating them as if they don't exist.
I skimmed it. Another look's turned up Loss Of Identity, but that still doesn't quite match what I'm thinking of (a more specific case where Person Xa's personality or some such is replaced with that of Person Xbnote Not that it has to be a person; they could be turned into a mook by The Virus or something (which might be someone/something else's personality or derived from Xa's) and Xb is treated as a completely new person and Xa is considered to no longer exist, essentially having died).
The two examples I was thinking of were;
It's not really And I Must Scream all the time, since the person's not "trapped" (they haven't been put on the bench, they've been dropped from the team, so to speak), and it's not a Fate Worse Than Death as much as a fate treated as the equivalent of death. It could overlap with either (if people assume they're dead but they can still perceive what the new personality is doing or someone considers something of themselves wondering around after they're dead worse).
Someone under the effects of a Baleful Polymorph ceases to be sapient, essentially no longer existing as a creature with a sense of self.
Someone's assimilated by a Hive Mind or otherwise brainwashed into some sort of drone.
Someone has their mind outright overwritten or erased and replaced with another personality.
Basically That Man Is Dead when said man has literally ceased to exist in a manner which could be considered close enough to death that everyone treats it as such (and it need not be pointed out by the man himself).
12:25:21 AM 17th May 2013
I say Tropes Are Flexible and many of the tropes we're speaking would fit what you're trying to find, really. I'd like to be proven wrong, though.
04:07:17 PM 17th May 2013
They are indeed. The problem is, everything I've found so far appears to be either unrelated or too narrow. As a run down of everything I've looked at so far;
What I'm looking for: A person is effectively "killed" (and ceases to exist) by the loss of their "self", rather than death in the biological sense.
That Man Is Dead - A stock phrase which indicates a person has discarded their previous identity and no longer considers themselves that person (but not necessarily actually lost it).
Loss Of Identity - The character themselves agonizes over whether or not they're still themselves (the trope I'm thinking of is basically what they're worried about).
Fate Worse Than Death - Something is treated as being worse than being killed. No real connection to this trope, although it could be used as one (especially if it's treated as a way of making someone Deader Than Dead).
And I Must Scream - Someone is trapped and unable to act. Unrelated, since I'm looking for a trope where the person ceases to exist.
Empty Shell - Someone who's "dead on the inside". This could be the result of this trope, but doesn't have to be and isn't the only possible outcome.
Technically Living Zombie - Close to what I'm looking for (a TLZ's basically someone who's lost their personality), but too specific. I'm after a supertrope for it.
Split Personality Takeover - Again, this is close (since the old personality is lost), but not quite broad enough (since it specifically needs an existing second personalitynote Rather than a changed version of the old one, completely new one, being reduced to a blank slate, etc and the old personality is often still there rather than completely destroyed). This would be a sister trope.
So...yeah, I'm still looking, unless I've made a mistake (I'm mostly looking for it because I'm interested in the trope so, for once, I'll be vaguely disappointed if I have to YKTTW it).
03:31:47 PM 17th May 2013
Is there a trope for when something in any form of media looksBowdlerised in oversea countries, but it is actually unedited and came from the original version of its home country?
Playing with question: An example of Fantastic Religious Weirdness in the Star Carrier book series' backstory.
In the wake of World War III, sparked in large part by radical Islam, every faith was required to ratify a pledge called the White Covenant that outlawed many religious practices. It took the "your right to swing your fist ends where my nose begins" approach: all adherents of all faiths could believe as they wished so long as that belief did not harm others. Proselytizing, most missionary work, and conversion by threat or force were now violations of basic human rights. Naturally this didn't go over well, with some, such as the ancestors of the Muslim colonists on Mufrid, choosing to GTFO rather than ratify.
My question is, would this be a straight use, Played For Drama, Deconstructed Trope, or some other variation?
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09:51:41 AM 17th May 2013
BPetroglyph Medium: Literature
09:14:17 AM 17th May 2013
Is there a trope for when protagonist A, following the trail of Protagonist B, travels through the same locations and meets the same people at different times? I'm specifically thinking of cases where this takes up a substantial portion of the story in question, where we get to see both protagonists interact with the same groups of characters (and perhaps deal with the aftermath of Protagonist B's passing through). Usually told in alternating chapters or series of chapters. I guess it'd be a subtype of Switching POV or Rotating Protagonist.
Book-length examples of this setup include Vonda N. Mc Intyre's "Dreamsnake" and Tanith Lee's "Vazkor, Son of Vazkor" and "Castle of Dark".
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08:46:30 AM 17th May 2013
Is there a trope for when too many minorities in a show is somehow considered "unrealistic" by the Fan Dumb?
Is there a trope name for when someone who's just undergone a traumatic experience has a blanket wrapped around them, regardless of the temperature? I see this all the time on TV, frequently while the person in question is being questioned by the authorities about what happened to them.
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06:00:13 AM 17th May 2013
They're standard issue for EM Ts because it's important to keep a person's body temperature regulated to help prevent shock. Not sure that's something that could really be troped.
05:53:53 AM 17th May 2013
Is there a trope for when adult characters are unable (or believe they're unable) to learn anything else or if they do learn anything else their brain will forget something in order to make room?
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03:52:44 AM 17th May 2013 edited by fastpager200
Is there a trope for the rare ocurrence when it is similar to Internet Backdraft, exept real life gets into the mix and the occasional Internet Counterrattack sometimes happens? I came up with this but want to make sure that it does not already exist. I like to call it Universal Backdraft.
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08:37:26 PM 12th May 2013
It's just an exaggerated Internet Backdraft.
11:26:24 AM 16th May 2013 edited by fastpager200
But is there a trope for it? A bit of a more simple to understand explanation is when Internet Backdraft becomes a universal apocalypse of flame, so the internet is destroyed for a period of time and Real Life is burning too, and even rarer when it is over it can sometimes mold itself into something brought up regularly [somewhere around DBZ popularity] It's happening right now and has been since the last of 2011, but I won't say the name because the people who are in the fanbase get offended by it for some strange reason and it would be a bit offensive right now. If you know what I am talking about, don't post it.
Do we have one for the cheap gag of having one of the patients at a psychiatric hospital appear dressed like a doctor or nurse, and maintain that pretense with visitors until the real physician arrives to send them away?
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11:34:19 PM 16th May 2013
I'm blanking on it but is there a reverse Cerebus Syndrome trope? IE a fairly serious work becomes progressively sillier and more jokey as time goes on?
A character keeps quoting... himself. He always says something, and remarks "and I said that at my book, [insert name here]". Of course, the character and the book are fictional, in fact he writes and quotes a new book each week.
Silent Majority. That's basically a fan who simply enjoys the work "as is", and stays aways from internet communities, with their ships, their fanfictions, their headscratchers, their epilectic trees... they just enjoy the work as it was made, with achivements and mistakes, and that's it.
What would the trope be when someone who hasn't seen their fantasy-forbidden father for years sees them and discovers a scrapbook with their accomplishments in it. EG Burton's Charlie and the chocolate factory
Is there a trope for how cryptids are virtually always portrayed as dangerous to people in fiction, even if the reported sightings of such creatures don't offer any indication of hostility or aggression on their part? For instance, it's very common to depict Bigfoot as a ferocious, territorial carnivore, even though the known ape species it's often alleged to be related to are mostly vegetarians and are quite shy about humans.
Is there a trope for when a character is chased by a monster of some kind and when the monster prepares to bite the hero, the hero grabs hold of the monster's tail and shoves it into the monster's mouth as the monster bites down on it? I've seen this done in The Rescuers Down Under and Kung Fu Panda.
Is there a trope for when someone who's skilled at something refuses to do it, so another person tries to do it instead but they're so terrible at it that the first person does it anyways?
Like, Alice asks Bob to do something she knows for he fact he's great at, but Bob refuses. Alice tries to do it herself, and she's so awful at it that Bob can't stand to watch her anymore and decides to do it himself.
Or maybe Alice tries to force Bob to do it by choosing someone she knows will completely botch it because she knows Bob would never let them/doesn't trust them.
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09:37:44 AM 15th May 2013
Macifayo Medium: Western Animation
08:51:22 AM 15th May 2013
Maybe two characters are stealing things in one scene in a montage, or maybe it's the end credits of a movie. Whatever the case, characters will either be stylized silhouettes, or look like animated paper cut-outs, and will have jazz music playing in the background.
I saw this recently in Donkey Kong Country Returns, in a sunset level everything in the foreground, including the characters, are black silhouettes, with Donkey Kong's tie and Diddy Kong's hat and vest red. It looked like something out of an i-pod commercial. I've also seen this on the end credits of The Incredibles, with the cut-out style and a jazz version of the main theme.
I know I've seen this somewhere else before though, maybe Ed Edd and Eddy but I'm not sure and can't find it. Does anyone know where else I could have seen this?
Yeah, it's kind of like that, thanks, but does it count if it's not an opening or exit credits but one scene in the middle of something, or if it's like in Donkey Kong Country Returns? This is the one level I'm talking about that led me to look for a trope for it in the first place: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zEqV_6-jURM
AgProv Medium: Film
08:11:35 AM 15th May 2013
Mainly film, but might also be TV. Is there a trope for this situation. A film, or film series, is made, sometimes with the added thrill of it having a supernatural dimension, and shortly afterwards, a series of (most probably) coincidental tragedies and disasters start afflicting the cast and production crew? I can think of two examples of "cursed" productions: the Exorcist series, where news coverage and popular legend points to inexplicable deaths, tragedies, and ill-fortune coming to people associated with the production. (The Aesop might be - don't tempt the Devil or call his name or he'll surely come). And the Superman movie series - think Christopher Reeve's personal tragedy, of falling off his horse and becoming paraplegic; or the actress who played Lois Lane going completely insane the way she did. Tragedies happen, and I'm not presuming a causal link or actual curse. But popular imagination attributes a "curse" and makes it a trope...
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07:41:05 AM 15th May 2013
Do we have a basic trope to describe that someone is a wanted fugitive on the run, has a bounty placed on them, or anything like that? Or would such a basic description count as People Sit In Chairs?
I feel like there may be some missing criminal justice tropes detailing that someone is a wanted fugitive on the run from the law, but I haven't been able to properly search too many indexes yet.
Oh I feel silly, I was just participating in an image picking thread indirectly related to Wanted Poster. It's the trope I need. Thanks!
07:15:24 AM 15th May 2013 edited by Farmelle
Do we have a trope for when villains team up, but wind up breaking off their alliance due to mutual distrust, potential backstabbing, and possibly seeds of discord sown by the main characters? We Are Struggling Together seems to be the closest, but I'm not sure. Mainly I'm thinking of bickering villains, or those team-ups where you always see one of the participants thinking about how he doesn't trust the other and vice versa.
Also, do we have a trope for unpopular characters in-universe? Not universally hated to the point of The Scrappy, not put through enough physical suffering to be the Butt Monkey, just that no one has a good word to put in for them. At worst, annoyance, at best, pity.
That was my first thought too, but the description states that it's specifically about one character. Plus, the character who does that generally has it as a plan to backstab from the outset, whereas this is about an alliance where the tension grows until it snaps.
Is there a a trope page for situations where a piece of media's creators promise an upcoming radical redesign to a character, either to quell fandom rage, create hype, or avoid controversy, and then, upon unveiling the "new and improved" version of the character, it's actually almost exactly the same as the original version?
I have a few variations on this in mind, but the trope I'm thinking of is basically "A radical change is promised, and turns out to not be much of a change at all." This could be either a real-life or an in-story event.
Is there a trope for the very limited set of occupations in (romantic) comedies?
If it's "respectable" and something you won't give up in the duration of a movie, you're something nurturing like a doctor or a teacher. Alternatively, you're in a profession with creative leanings (or are still in a Waiting For A Break situation, just about to Pursue The Dream Job), like work in media, PR, restaurant biz, or maybe own a quirky shop.
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09:59:50 PM 14th May 2013
Is there a trope for when a character has a radically different appearance in early promotional materials like test footage and posters than they do in the final product? It wouldn't be Never Trust A Trailer since I'm talking about design changes that occurred between the time the promos were released and the product was finished, rather than an intentional attempt to mislead the consumers.
I remember there being a trope/trivia item about creators who keep switching between different works or series, named something like Creator Attention Deficit Disorder. Does this page still exist, and if so, what's it actually called?
Is there a trope for when an adaptation (especially of a Long Runner source like comic books) takes two previously unrelated characters or concepts, and intrinsically ties them together? Something like Greg Weisman making Bumblebee into The Atom's sidekick in Young Justice or the Chitauri being Thanos's Mooks in The Avengers?
I initially thought something like Arc Welding might work, but for characters.
I'm looking for a trope which describes a character having to deal with a person or situation which mirrors how others previously have had to deal with the character, giving the reader (and maybe the character) increased insight in how she looks from the other side of the fence.
It can be bratty child having to babysit a younger brat
It can be a superhero being chased by a vigilante
It can be a thief being robbed
It can be an alpha bitch being an outcast in another social circle
It is similar to Swapped Roles, but does not require an actual swap. The point of the trope is putting the protagonist in a new situation, preferably in the shoes of another character.
Example: In Dresden files book Blood Rites, one of the villains Harry has to deal with is self absorbed, self righteous and far too stupid to realize just how dangerous the power she ignorantly flings around is to herself and everyone around her. This echos how Harry is seen by most of his seniors and how they have dealt with him.
Its more like Perspective Reversal, but again without the flip. This is when ONE character change position relative to his previous role, not when TWO characters change position with each other. Kinda similar to Ironic Echo, but with positions rather than dialoge.
Do we have a trope for thin, rectangular eyes that slant upwards (suggesting a triangle pointing up) to indicate someone is indifferent, callous, detached? I'm thinking of vespa/guitar girl from FLCL and the head of the cyborgs in Towa No Quon.
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12:19:13 PM 14th May 2013
How about a trope where turning out the light indicates the end of an episode of a TV show or a movie?
This sounds like Running Gag, but I don't think it's deliberate so much as lazy writing. In Charmed, as the seasons went on, the San Francisco PD would, anytime the Halliwells and Co. were under suspicion, cite "We have X many years worth of files on them", X being however many years the show was on at that point. Now, the SFPD veered willy-nilly between Police Are Useless and Obstructive Bureaucrat status, but it makes sense in RL terms that cops would note repeat inquiries. Show-wise, though, it could get tiresome, and again, this was never lampshaded outside of the start of the current inquiry, the last of which ended with a Too Dumb To Live obsessed inspector entering where she should have known better. I guess my question is, what might you call it when something leaves Running Gag territory and just goes to tiresome fallback? (I guess Inuyasha's "Naraku's behind everything always" falls under this too)
I have the feeling I hear the music Lux Aeterna quite often (though I never quite remember where), to the point it almost sounds like a musical trope in itself… would it deserve its own page like, say, Toccata And Fugue In D Minor?
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08:01:09 AM 14th May 2013
Do we have a trope for something like unsung heroes in fiction? Where a character defers taking any credit in favor of someone else, or simply when they choose not to let anyone know they've done something good? We have Dude Wheres My Respect, but this is for unfair examples. There's also What You Are In The Dark, but this is more about moral choices and what not. What happens for characters that just do their heroics and return home quietly, a la Samwise Gamgee or the Three Good Fairies from Sleeping Beauty?
Hm...very close. That covers some examples. What about for when a character just defers credit away from them? Do their heroics, go back home or let some other guy take it for good reason?
03:37:41 PM 13th May 2013
Defers credit? Like, tries to avoid or deflect the praise?
08:01:09 AM 14th May 2013 edited by helterskelter
Yes, or just doesn't need it. Credit is their focus and it probably never comes up in the story. Like I said, a character like Sam, who did half the hero's work (possibly more), gets a ninth of the credit. Characters like The Three Good Fairies do nearly all of the work when the prince is battling the villain, but the story just doesn't focus on it. Things like that. They're not angry about it, and it's not unfair that they didn't get the credit (or even if it is, that's not the point), but they simply...defer it.
Think Nothing Of It is where they get credit, and are humble about it. The Greatest Story Never Told is when a character does a great deed that goes unnoticed. What You Are In The Dark is when a character makes a good (or bad) moral decision which, at the time, believes no one will ever notice. Dude Wheres My Respect is for characters who want the credit and yet it's being taken by someone else or just not given.
Is the difference I'm making clear?
07:57:14 AM 14th May 2013
Is there a trope for the Four Heavenly Kings or the Big Four (a team of four people). They don't necessarily have to be evil.
Do we have a trope where the hero (or whoever else) simply can't understand why the Politically Incorrect Villain is so racist/sexist/whatever-ist? I guess it'd kinda be like "Good Cannot Comprehend Evil".
Another variation would be the hero asking the Omnicidal Maniac or the guy who wants to rule the world by destroying everyone on it why he's doing this: "How do you plan on ruling the world if there's no world to rule?"
This can be Fanfiction trope:
What is it called when the author gives the main character in the story(who are actually canon from the source material not Mary Sues) The power or the sheer luck to solve every single obstacle the come up against with little to no difficulty. This creates a story with no suspense or interest as everything will just fall into place in the character's lap. I would call it a Wack-Fic as the author is giving their favorite characters everything on a silver platter.
Doesn't look like there is, though there's several gender swapped examples there. Might be worth a YKTTW to see if there's enough for a separate trope.
06:29:39 PM 12th May 2013
No, because this isn't something that happens in fiction often enough to constitute one.
01:47:28 PM 13th May 2013
08:12:15 PM 13th May 2013
If you have a specific example in mind, you could always list it as an inversion, or use the example's context to describe that in this case it's the wife who's the childish one.
06:33:35 PM 13th May 2013 edited by Kaljinyu
Is there a thing/trope for when you're painfully aware of stuff in remakes and edits and stuff?
I'm not talking about when they censor something and do a bad job of it, it's not necessarily about noticing censorship, or that the editing job is bad.
A hypothetical example, say you were watching some HD remake of a show, and you notice the protagonist's shirt used to be purple, but they changed it to orange. If you hadn't seen the original, you wouldn't have minded or even noticed this, but you did, and so you know they changed it, and so you can't get drawn into the show like you used to because every time you see the protagonist you keep thinking about how they changed his shirt.
Another hypothetical example, say you were watching an HD remake, and you notice they changed a bunch of voices and pronunciations in re-recording. If this had been the first and only one you watched, you wouldn't have been aware of the difference because you wouldn't have seen it. But you did, and so you can't get drawn into the remake like you did with the original because you're so painfully aware that it's changed and you keep remembering what it was like before.
It's not necessarily They Changed It Now It Sucks. You don't necessarily hate the changes, and unlike in TCI, NIS the changes aren't broad or anything, like in, say, a book-to-movie adaptation. You just can't watch it as seamlessly as you did the first time you watched the non-remake due to being aware that it's a "remake". But if this trope existed, it might be somewhere under Audience Reactions, although I can't find it.
EDIT: It can also apply if you've watched the remake first, but then watch the original and are painfully aware of the differences the original has to the remake. Not that the remake is bad, in fact it's more that you're used to the remake, and the original is awkward to watch due to the differences you're noticing.
EDIT 2: Or maybe you're watching the original, but know of the remake and know of all the stuff the remake has that you're missing from the original, and so, it feels, like, lacking, maybe? Like maybe you're watching the original version of a show, but then later you're aware that there's a newer, more complete version available (AKA a remaster) and suddenly every time you watch the original you keep thinking that, in the remaster, they probably say different things and have different content? But if you were to suddenly start watching the remaster, you'd be aware of all the points and events in the show that they changed for the remaster?
Is that too different? I mean to say that these all fall under the same umbrella.
EDIT 3: I'm clearly having trouble putting it into words, as is per usual with trope identification. But I guess basically it's that feeling of "But I know they say something else in the remaster" or "But I'm painfully aware that that's not the same voice actor" or "But I know the edit has missing content that the original doesn't have".
EDIT 4: Another hypothetical example is being aware of the real reason a change was made to something. Like, say, Jynx, the Pokémon? Let's say you saw episodes of the show where Jynx was black. And then you watch some remasters. And Jynx is purple. People who'd watched the remaster first probably wouldn't be aware of the difference. Or maybe they are, but chalk up the new purple color to the high definition of the remasters. But you're pretty sure you know that the real reason Jynx is purple is to avoid controversy, and you're aware of this every time you see Jynx.
Or maybe you watched the remasters first and saw purple Jynx first, and then later on you watch the originals and see that Jynx is black, and THAT'S awkward for you to watch due to noticing a specific difference between the two versions.
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05:42:46 PM 13th May 2013
I think this would still be They Changed It. I believe what you're describing is too narrow and complain-y to be split off into it's own trope. They Changed It Now It Sucks should be enough of a catch-all to cover instances like the one's you've described.
We really don't need any more YMMV tropes.
06:33:35 PM 13th May 2013 edited by Kaljinyu
What if it's not really the change that makes it "suck"? Like say you watched the change first, but it's the original that's tripping you up?
Also, it's not so much that you hate it, it's that the premise is negated. You're no longer drawn into the story as seamlessly due to being aware of the differences.
I was reluctant to go here first because I didn't wanna actually propose a new page because YMMV entries are too nebulous already, but at the same time I don't really think this one exists. But I wanted to find out what the closest thing to it is.
EDIT: But I guess premise negation falls under Willing Suspension Of Disbelief, which interestingly enough isn't a YMMV category.
EDIT 2: It probably also has a lot to do with being meticulous and nitpicky, is there a trope category for that? When you notice something's up. Where at first you were totally immersed in the reality of your product, and then you notice something that snaps you out of it. Is that also too narrow?
05:22:01 PM 13th May 2013
I know Uncle Tom Foolery is a trope, but do we have a page for the more classic meaning of Uncle Tom? IE a character (usually a minority) accusing a member of his or her race of turning their back on them? Or any of those instances you see on TV and movies where a black character accuses another black character of turning their back on "the hood" or "the streets" or something?