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Regarding the Trivia namespace (crowner restarted Aug 17):

 1 Meta Four, Mon, 15th Nov '10 7:57:04 PM from the house of bread and battle
AXTUCE MUN AXTE INCAL
I understand that Hey, It's That Guy! and What Could Have Been examples from works pages are supposed to be moved there.

What other argenfargles should be moved to the trivia pages? I think Shout-Out and Take That could be moved.
Huh, I just posted in a discussion page asking about Shout Outs and trivia.

I definitely think shout outs can go under trivia. I've been putting What Could Have Been in YMMV, though... is that alright?

Other possible trivia tropes:

edited 15th Nov '10 8:01:05 PM by melloncollie

Seems to work.smile
Goal: Clear, Concise and Witty
 4 shimaspawn, Mon, 15th Nov '10 8:02:06 PM from Here and Now Relationship Status: In your bunk
Could we get a banner for the tropes that should be on the trivia mainspace? Maybe make a trivia index.
Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.

-Philip K. Dick
Teutonic Tomboy T-Girl
I think Shout-Out and Take That are both still Tropes, though. While referential, they're still part of the work and its storytelling.

I think the general organizing principle behind the Trivia tab is a place to put non-tropes that are nevertheless worth nothing in some fashion.

Edit: Melloncollie's other 4 look appropriate for Trivia, though.

edited 15th Nov '10 8:05:32 PM by suedenim

 6 Meta Four, Mon, 15th Nov '10 8:04:33 PM from the house of bread and battle
AXTUCE MUN AXTE INCAL
^^Trivial Tropes?

edited 15th Nov '10 8:04:43 PM by MetaFour

 7 Kris Mahai, Tue, 16th Nov '10 1:28:00 PM Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Hm?
The problem with Shout Outs, though, is that I've noticed a tendency of regarding anything which could possibly be construed as a connection between two works as an example of the trope. It leads to really long Shout-Out sections full of things that probably aren't intended Shout Outs. Anything we could do about that?
“Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too?”
 8 muninn, Tue, 16th Nov '10 4:15:43 PM from Somewhere, out there...
'M not Crazy, just Raven
Shout-Out already has its own namespace for some works, although that seems to be from the way the page was split
There are lots of so-called tropes that are actually trivia / people sit on chairs. People like those a lot, but tropes are storytelling devices. You fail X forever, stock phrases, shout outs, lots of stuff. (It's a constant battle in YKTTW, people are like, "PSOC? But it's just like Soandso trope! A list of fictional dogs is totally legit.") Topping them with a flag that says "this is a collection of info, not a trope, but have at it!" solves problems in a really similar way to having widespread YMMV flag use.

edited 16th Nov '10 5:02:23 PM by rodneyAnonymous

Becky: Who are you? The Mysterious Stranger: An angel.
Huck: What's your name? The Mysterious Stranger: Satan.
I missed the bit where anyone said "supposed to be", if it was said; I only know that people, including me, have been talking about it.

 11 Meta Four, Tue, 16th Nov '10 7:39:28 PM from the house of bread and battle
AXTUCE MUN AXTE INCAL
I've been putting What Could Have Been in YMMV, though... is that alright?
I would say that the content of the WCHB should be trivia. For example, something like "In the first draft, Bob was gay, and the director's first choice for the role was Christian Bale!" is a cold fact that's either true or not true. It only enters YMMV territory if you try to say that it's What Should Have Been (or alternatively, What We Can Thank Crystal Dragon Jesus For Not Allowing To Happen)—which is irrelevant to the argenfargle.

Oh brother, even trivia argenfargles can get derailed by subjectivity.
Teutonic Tomboy T-Girl
[up] Yeah, it's a bit annoying. For instance, I found one on the Galaxy Quest page that essentially amounts to Wil Wheaton saying "I wish I'd been in that movie." No hints that anyone had actually considered putting him in the movie, though....

I have to admit that my approach is more "Get this crap off the Main page" than devoting a lot of energy to issues like "Objective Trivia vs. Subjective Trivia."
 13 Fighteer, Wed, 17th Nov '10 6:34:56 AM from the Time Vortex Relationship Status: Dancing with Captain Jack Harkness
[up] Same. Get it off Main is my primary goal.
Neoclassicism, AKA the Tinkerbell school of economics.
 14 carla, Wed, 24th Nov '10 8:24:23 AM from panama city, panama
question: Shout Outs go in trivia, but Mythology Gags don't... right?

 15 Fighteer, Wed, 24th Nov '10 8:44:46 AM from the Time Vortex Relationship Status: Dancing with Captain Jack Harkness
Er... umm, dunno. Mythology Gag is usually relevant in-universe, right?
Neoclassicism, AKA the Tinkerbell school of economics.
 16 carla, Wed, 24th Nov '10 12:25:34 PM from panama city, panama
yeah, that was my thought, initially. stuff like Continuity Nod and Mythology Gag are related to the series itself, or a previous incarnation of it, so it should have some relevance, right? but then, a lot of it doesn't really affect the plot at all. a lot of them are just mentions or quips with the intention of Pandering to the Base. soooo, if they don't have anything to do with the plot in any way (much like Shout Outs), shouldn't they go in trivia as well?

also, a little while ago i found an instance of Names to Know in Anime, with a list of voice actors for the characters. i understand we're not moving voice actor pages from the main page (well, we could move them to the character sheet if there is one, but if there's no character sheet i guess we can't move them at all), so would this use be allowed? or should that list be moved somewhere else, like trivia?

 17 Meta Four, Wed, 24th Nov '10 4:57:46 PM from the house of bread and battle
AXTUCE MUN AXTE INCAL
a lot of them are just mentions or quips with the intention of Pandering To The Base.
And a lot of Fanservice is also Pandering to the Base that doesn't affect the plot.

I'm of the opinion that Continuity Nod should stay on main. But if we wanted to aggressively move stuff, I could understand sending Mythology Gag to trivia.
 18 carla, Thu, 25th Nov '10 6:24:30 AM from panama city, panama
right, good point.

i have no problem leaving Mythology Gag and Continuity Nod on the main page, not really. Shout-Out usage is a more ubiquitous because people will find connections where there really aren't any, and the Shout-Out lists can get pretty large. so can MG and CN, although we could always just say they get moved to trivia if the list gets too large (although, that's sort of what Continuity Porn is for, isn't it?)

i ran across these, which might be in the in the same boat:

again, a lot of it is just Pandering to the Base or even Author Appeal, but going with the same logic we'd still leave them in, right?

 19 Doc Strange, Thu, 25th Nov '10 8:30:03 AM from Rhode Island
Sorcerer Supreme
Now should the stuff that's being added into the Trivia section be added as
  • Categories for each Trivia Trope
  • In category folders
  • As regular trope listings like on the works pages

and should a Trivia Trope index be made for the tropes that are being added in trivia sections?

edited 25th Nov '10 8:30:10 AM by DocStrange

 20 carla, Thu, 25th Nov '10 8:54:43 AM from panama city, panama
i've just been adding them as a regular trope listing, in alphabetical order, just like the YMMV tabs. on one ocassion i had to soft-split a page, though, because it already contained a couple of trivia facts that were not examples of tropes; i just left those at the top, then added a heading for "trivia tropes" and listed the tropes under that heading.

we should definitely have an index for these tropes. a banner would be useful, but i think an index would be a great start. the Trivia page as it stands is just an autoindex of pages that have a trivia tab, it doesn't tell us anything about which tropes go in the trivia tab. we should have both, like in the case of YMMV / YMMV Index. i like the name Trivial Index, myself. evil grin

so which tropes do we have on the listso far?

still waiting on input for some of the other tropes that have been mentioned.

edited 25th Nov '10 9:12:43 AM by carla

 21 Micah, Thu, 25th Nov '10 9:00:19 AM from the Midwest
What Could Have Been was the one that started this discussion in the first place.
132 is the rudest number.
 22 carla, Thu, 25th Nov '10 9:13:17 AM from panama city, panama
right, edited my post to add it. thanks!

 23 Some Sort Of Troper, Thu, 25th Nov '10 9:49:28 AM Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, she is imaginary
I would not include Shout-Out and Actor Allusion. That line of "affecting elements in the work" is important and these are things meant to directly affect the audience.
Don't just tell us the facts; tell us the memes, tell us the archetypes, tell us the catchy ideas and symbolic roles that get planted in pe
 24 carla, Thu, 25th Nov '10 11:27:30 AM from panama city, panama
i'm not sure. Shout Outs are pretty much what trivia pages in, say, imdb are filled with. i was thinking about it a while ago and came to some conclusions... let's see:

trivia:

  • dictionary.com - matters or things that are very unimportant, inconsequential, or nonessential; trifles; trivialities.
  • world english dictionary - petty details or considerations; trifles; trivialities.

by those definitions, pretty much all of the tropes mentioned in this thread would fall under trivia. but in the context of tvtropes, defining a trope as a "convention, " i'm more inclined to wonder which of these actually have authorial intent behind them. i agree that a Shout-Out directly affects the audience, as the audience is the one that recognizes the Shout-Out. but does the fact that the audience recognizes it mean that the author was using it specifically for that purpose?

Fanservice, for example, is something authors/creators intentionally put in the work to attract the audience's attention to it. Shout Outs however, at least as far as my understanding of the trope goes, are generally put in because the author gets a feeling of satisfaction out of it (he's a fan of whatever he's referencing, he wants to honor a work he respects, he wants to do something special for someone in his crew or family, etc). while he/she is adding the Shout-Out on purpose, he's not doing it specifically to attract the attention of other fans of show X to his work. so is he using it as a device to further develop the work itself? not really.

now, if the Shout-Out does indeed tell us something about the story... then it's probably not really a Shout-Out. for example: Word of God said trowa barton's last name is a Shout-Out to Tim Burton, whom the creator happens to be a big fan of. trowa was Named After Somebody Famous, basically. fans of tim burton will appreciate the name (eh, barely. i never realized the Shout-Out until i read it here, tbh), but it doesn't mean the creator of Gundam Wing was trying to attract tim burton fans to his work.

now, if trowa was anything like tim burton, or if his plotlines ran parallel to any of tim burton's movies, that would be going way past trivia— but it wouldn't be a Shout-Out anymore, it would be a Meaningful Name instead.

as such, i think Shout-Out does belong in trivia. as does Actor Allusion, Relationship Voice Actor and such. tropes like Fanservice, Expy, Celebrity Resemblance, Mythology Gag and similar, actually are used by the creator to tell the audience something, relevant to the plot or not, and as such should stay on the main page.

anyway, i've ranted long enough. some other tropes for consideration:

and of course, if Shout-Out gets moved to trivia, all its subtropes ought to be moved too, like Shout-Out Theme Naming.

 25 Deboss, Thu, 25th Nov '10 3:40:28 PM from Awesomeville Texas
I see the Awesomeness.
Ascended Meme should not be on Trivia.

edited 25th Nov '10 3:42:42 PM by Deboss

Page Action: Trivia 4
16th Jul '12 9:55:27 AM
What would be the best way to fix the page?
At issue:
We are going to use the Trivia page for facts that are not tropes. Please vote up for items you'd like moved to the Trivia page and down those you think should stay among the tropes. Struck out items have already been added, please direct your attention to the rest.

Note: An option has consensus to move to trivia when it has at least 10 votes and at least a 2:1 ratio. Please do not call items until they have been on the crowner for at least 48 hours.

To vote, access the crowner directly.

Previous crowners are here, here, and here

Trivia is for insignificant factoids about a work or its creation that cannot be determined from the work itself.
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