I, for one, am very uncomfortable with the precedent that counting a character as a CM due to not taking their words at face value would set.
I cannot emphasize this point strongly enough.
Really, if we start counting (or, for that matter, discounting) any
trope due to not taking uncontested parts of the story at face value (it's something else entirely, of course, if it's revealed that a character is lying, or if there's controversy about the potential truthfulness of the parts in-story), then we might as well pack up the wiki and close shop. If our cataloguing of tropes is based on ignoring parts of the story, then we aren't troping. We're making meta-fanfic (since it's not even writing fanfic; it's simply describing a fanfic version of the story).
That said, since I do believe in sticking to the story as written, I'm going to keep troping, and I am going to consider all parts of a story when evaluating a trope, especially this one.
@1600 Shaoken already handled this. If said troper does come in to ask about it, I will point out that the heinous standard is always in relation to the story, as well as the fact that we always hold off on adding characters associated with currently running plotlines.
Mirage: To be fair, we're willing to revisit examples if someone provides context for what was previously a Zero-Context Example
. So, now that we have some...
See, considering Jafar was basically trying to enslave the world and was willing to do damn near anything for omnipotence (don't forget - even though he failed, he did try a You Have Outlived Your Usefulness
on Aladdin before the latter became a personal nemesis), I'm inclined to think that Mirage still falls short of the "heinous" standard. If there's more to her villainy, I want to hear it.
Since folks want to wrap up the Disney page (I personally haven't gone over examples from the Animated Canon before, except in isolated cases, though, so I'm going to add to that):
The Mad Doctor: I actually brought up the animated short version earlier, in post @1461. This is one of the reasons I pointed out earlier that it's polite to actually look through others' posts and give thoughts on their arguments. Anyhow, since people missed it the first time:
As it happens, one of the things I unlocked while playing Epic Mickey
was the original The Mad Doctor
short. And it's only about 6 and a half minutes, and was the only appearance of said doctor, so that's easy enough to go through to make judgment, right?
Well, this is a short from back when animation was for adults, and it shows (hey, Ub Iwerks' skeletons! I recognize those!). And our Mad Doctor shows up in the middle of the night, kidnaps Pluto, tortures him a bit, gets ready to perform Mad Surgery (i.e. grafting Pluto's head onto a chicken body to see what kind of eggs would get laid... classic cartoons, ladies and gents!), and gets ready to cut Mickey in half when Mickey attempts to rescue Pluto. And that's actually it - he gets, at most, two minutes of total screentime.
I think it all comes down to the fact that he is willing to try to murder Mickey just to get a dog to operate on. Really, couldn't find a stray or afford to buy one yourself? That's the only thing, though, to make him distinct from a generic Mad Scientist
. Is trying to murder Mickey Mouse just to save on dog purchasing really enough to get one labeled a Complete Monster?
I'd err on the side of caution and say no, but I'm hardly tied to it.
Frollo: I already said yes, with standard "They Just Didn't Care
The Coachman from Pinocchio
: Creepy as all hell, yes. But the reason he gets away with what he does is because he's an agent of karma, not a Karma Houdini
. Think of it - he tempts bad kids into going along with what he does, and he punishes the fools who go along. I'm not totally sure that he's actually evil at all. Even if he is, there's a difference between creepy and heinous (I think the puppet show master was actually more blatantly evil, to be honest).
If anything, I think this example shows the biggest problem on the Disney page - there seems to be an equation of "Nightmare Fuel
= Complete Monster
". Folks are so affected by how certain villains scared them as a kid that the visceral memory causes them to inflate how evil the villains were in their mind.
Fortunately, the villains weren't what scared me as a kid (no, the Disney Acid Sequence
, particularly "Pink Elephants on Parade" from Dumbo
and "Heffalumps and Woozles" from Winnie-the-Pooh
, were what freaked me out). So I'm not affected by "oh, this was scary when I was a kid."
The Horned King: Good, although the part about the pig should be dropped, since that's Arson, Murder, and Jaywalking
Percival from The Rescuers Down Under
: Now, I can excuse the poaching for the purposes of this article because he doesn't know that the animals that he's poaching are sophonts. So we're left with repeated torture and attempting to kill a child because said child got in the way of his poaching. That's a Moral Event Horizon
, to be sure. That said, I'm thinking he's just barely not heinous enough. But only barely, and I could be convinced with the right argument.
Sykes from Oliver & Company
: Good, although that example is Natter-y
and needs to be rewritten.
Queen Grimhilde of Snow White and the Seven Dwarves
: Wait, she has a name? How did I miss that? Was I always too distracted by my first encounter with Fridge Logic
Anyhow, I have to vote that she's merely a Jerkass
. The only evil thing she does is try to have her stepdaughter killed. Sure, not nice by any stretch of the imagination. But that's fairly low on the heinous scale. I think not.
Shan Yu of Mulan
: I think he gets too little characterization. Feels more like a Generic Doomsday Villain
Sa'Luk from the Aladdin
cartoon: Hey, excessive exclamations and overused markup tags! My old "warning, probably not an example" friends!
I could see keeping him, but it'd have to be heavily rewritten, and I wouldn't mourn losing it.
Jackal from Gargoyles
: First off, it needs to chop off half the entry, which is describing characters other than Jackal who don't qualify. Still, what's there is good enough, though it needs to go more into how he never shows any good qualities despite numerous appearances.
Archmage from same: Zero-Context Example
Thaliog from same: For his comic incarnation, yes, though with less spoiler tags, and removing Xanatos calling him You Monster!
Proteus from same: That's so poorly written, it tries to write itself twice. If someone can craft a version that better illustrates his evil, I'm willing to keep him.
Sevarius from same: Considering that he apparently didn't realize just what he did, plus it cites that he Pet the Dog
later, easy cut.
Oldcastle from same: Evil, but not heinous enough for the series standard. Cut.
Monkey Fist from Kim Possible
: That Broken Base Pot Hole
is a red flag; not only that, but I know that he's occasionally depicted as a Worthy Opponent
. I say no.
Erik the Synthodrone from same: Zero Context Example. Cut.
Warhok and Warmonga from same: I need context as to whether they have no other redeemable features - partnerships do smack of friendship and caring of some
variety, especially if one is going along with the plan because the other was tricked.
Penelope of Sonny With A Chance
: What's the inverse of Arson, Murder, and Jaywalking
? Because that's what we have here... two relatively minor acts, followed by a murder attempt. That said, while demented, it was done for love. Pitiful, and I say cut.
Merlock: Already voted cut.
Taurus Bulba from Darkwing Duck
: Yeah, I agree that he fits. In fact, I always was astounded with the direction that the show took after the five-part premier (involving him); it was was more light-hearted than his appearance suggested.
Negaduck from the same: He talked a big game, but he didn't actually try to do
anything much worse than what most of them tried. Cut.
Strasser from Mighty Joe Young
: Considering that this is a more realistic movie, and he's willing to put many people's lives at risk just to have an excuse to kill a large gorilla, I'm willing to include him.
I'm a bit busy for now; I'll get to the rest of the page later.
edited 11th Jul '12 8:26:52 AM by 32_Footsteps