During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
@31258: That writeup is much better. I knew attempting to draft something would get better results.
We could maybe add about his gloating towards the end of the story arc, when he gleefully admits that many people are about to die, but apart from that I've no suggestions.
Trans rights are human rights. If you don't think that, please leave.
Please hold up on the Boxtrolls guy, I am planning on seeing it this weekend.
@ Austin, yes, the film opens with someone telling her what will happen, and her reaction is basicly "blah blah blah, I can have whatever I want, no one tells me what I can't have". it is not "I don't believe you" as much as "I don't care".
jjj
@ACW
River of Stars doesn't have a page, so it just redlinks.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Alright. After that, no more waiting.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Yeah; I think the process is it's okay to do that so when the work DOES get a page there won't have to be re-linking.
Well, since the majority of the votes are still in favor of including the Dark Princess, I have decided to propose a write up:
Rainbow Brite And The Star Stealer: The Dark Princess is a rare example from a Sugar Bowl series. In her greed, she plots to move the diamond planet Spectra out of its foundation, and bring it to her castle, despite the fact that all light in the universe must pass through the planet or all life in existence (including herself) will freeze to death in darkness. When her plan is foiled, she decides to fly a spaceship into the planet and destroy it out of spite. Willing to end all life in existence out of greed, the Dark Princess is perhaps the most monsterous villain in all of Sugar Bowl Western Animation.
jjj
Lost in Space
Oh, my goodness, we're seriously contemplating a villain from Rainbow Brite? I guess she sounds pretty bad, though.
edited 2nd Oct '14 5:29:44 PM by Fighteer
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
I'm not well versed in those "toyetic" '80s kids' shows but I understand they could be really dark when they wanted to be.
Staying outta this one.
Lizzid people!
Well, this is awkward.
I had gotten 5 yes votes to three no votes, so I just wanted to propose a write up and ask what everyone thought.
jjj
Sophia Lonesoul's vote on the Rainbow Brite issue will be coming in tomorrow morning. She told me she'd do it tonight, but had some other things to take care of.
Actually, there's a few things bothering me about that DND Monsters sandbox. Let me look at it for a moment before swapping it in.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
We got time.
Doesn't even like this username
After some contemplation I'll throw in a ![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
for the Dark Princess.
If no one objects, I'll go ahead and cut Walter, Shyamalan, and Czar Baldy from this post. Looks like Teridax is the only keep for BIONICLE'. Aarfy from Catch-22'' received 4 votes, 1 ![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
vote, and 2 unsure.
I'll go for Silas now. for Willow's Bavmorda and for Gilgwyr and Leigh. for the Dark Princess because of the concerns already cited. If there's a better case to made for her, sure, but as rexpensive noted there's too much ambiguity if she even knows the consequences of her actions, the show in general seems to be too lighthearted to make an irredeemably depraved villain a likely proposition, and her plan makes no logical sense. She really doesn't sound like an actively sadistic Omnicidal Maniac, so how is she supposed to profit from stealing the gem by killing herself?
Eliza from Skullgirls... not sure. We've been over some of those before, and the other villains acquire a pretty sizable bodycount. The general problem is that there seems to be a lot of Offstage Villainy. Eliza being a tyrant over an alternate Ancient Egypt can't be an Informed Attribute either. Here's what was previously listed:
- Complete Monster: In the world of Skullgirls, there are plenty to choose from:
- Brain Drain, who kidnaps and forcibly transforms innocent girls (such as Carol, a.k.a. Painwheel) into bloodthirsty monsters, which he then brainwashes to keep in line. The fact Painwheel is the only known Super-Soldier from Lab Zero (as opposed to Lab Eight's colorful Ragtag Bunch of Misfits) may lead to some Fridge Horror: that Brain Drain's ruthlessness has killed off all of his other experiments. Even if there ARE other experiments left... Do we REALLY want to know what they look like?!?!
- Black Dahlia, who dismembered Ms. Fortune, killed the Fishbone gang, killed the Contiellos (and everyone at their party, including sadistically shooting Sienna/Squigly in the head) and many other horrific deeds. The fact that she's rather old and has been killing for a long time means one probably couldn't even put a number on her crimes.
- Lorenzo Medici is implied to be even older than Black Dahlia, thanks to the Mafia's long-standing possession of the Life Gem — so old that no one can remember how long he's been in charge. Ordering the deaths of the entire Contiello family is not even remotely the worst of his atrocities, just one of the most recent; in this particular case he sent an incredibly nasty message about the mob's Code Of Silence by arranging to have the corpses' mouths sewn shut (doubly cruel, given that in life they were a family of opera singers). He was also most likely responsible for the Medici family's involvement in the lucrative slave trade, meaning the onus for Patricia/Peacock's horrific mutilation (blinding and near death by dismemberment) ultimately rests on him.
@ 31258: Cut down on the spoiler tags, please. It conflicts with both the Complete Monster trope as a Spoilers Off one and Spoiler Policy in general on not creating swiss-cheese entries.
I don't think we've been over the show Shinzo before, which had several especially heinous villains. In fact, that show didn't believe in subtlety at all—with one exception, every single villain is an unapologetically sadistic asshole, and most are genocidal to boot. The only real disqualifier is how they compare in heinousness compared to each other.
In the backstory of the show a Celestial god known as Lanancuras was corrupted by greed and lust for power until he became a Satan-like figure, who then set out to conquer or destroy every living thing. The other Celestials imprisoned him in a meteorite, where he remained for millennia until he fell to Earth. Due to the climate changes, the humans spliced animal and human DNA to create a new Servant Race, the Enterrans. Lanancuras influenced the Enterrans, led by their King Mushrambo and 6 other Enterran Generals (among them Dakuma, Ryuma, and Rusephine are the only ones shown), to completely annihilate the human race to prepare for his arrival. The Celestials intervened to divide Lanancuras's power among himself, Mushrambo and a human child, Yakumo, who was placed in suspended animation. When Lanancuras ordered Mushrambo to kill Yakumo, she used her portion of Lanancuras' power to break his possession of Mushrambo, and Mushrambo's spirit was then divided among three Enterrans. After Yakumo wakes up from suspended animation 500 years in the future, they gradually defeat the 7 Generals. Time travel causes the chronology to split in a second timeline where the human-Enterran war never happened and Lanancuras is released from his prison until he too is finally destroyed.
One-shot villains are right out. None of them go any further in heinousness other than trying to kill Yakumo, the three male leads, or sometimes their own allies. The Arc Villains are, in order: Insect King Dakuma, Prince of the Reptiles Gyasa, Reptile King Ryuma, Karas of the Birds, Bird Queen Rusephine, Dark King Mushrambo as the Big Bad of season 1, the two Kadrians (a servant race of Lanancuras) Eilis and Honoria, and Lanancuras as the Big Bad of season 2. Karas, Mushrambo, and Lanancuras seem to set the heinous bar, although Mushrambo disqualifies because he's retconned into having been possessed in season 2, adding his crimes to Lanancuras' tally. Ryuma is the only one who gets a redeeming trait in that he's saddened by the loss of his (literal) Dragon, the other villains besides Lanancuras and Karas are bad, but these two are worse. Of the two Lanancuras accomplished more, but he's essentially a god and the Enterran Karas just a particarely strong humanoid.
Karas
- Conquer the world.
- Lure Enterrans to Mechano City under the pretense of a tournament, then kills them by the dozens to steal their power.
- Threatens to kill Robot King Nipper, does so later on.
- Orders robot children killed; tries to slowly kill a robot kid by disassembling him first.
- Tries to eat Yakumo.
- After the robots turn on him, tries to destroy the whole city and kill all the robots.
Lanancuras
- Conquer the world.
- Genocide of the human race, and later the Enterrans too.
- Sent Mushrambo on his mission to kill Yakumo as a child, Yakumo's father, and obliterate Shinzo (the last human city).
- Orders his generals to start another war in the second timeline.
- Absorbs Yakumo after trying to kill her several times.
- After his defeat, reveals that his demise will mean the end of the world (he's a Cosmic Entity embodying the Milky Way, so any damage done to him has effects on the natural world) and planned for this out of spite.
edited 3rd Oct '14 4:55:20 AM by Morgenthaler
You've got roaming bands of armed, aggressive, tyrannical plumbers coming to your door, saying "Use our service, or else!"
@ Morgenthaler, I would not really call her sadistic either. She mostly comes off as a Spoiled Brat in a grown woman's body who thinks she can have everything. I never considered the possibility she did not know since she was told in the intro, and did not say anything like "you're lying".
jjj
I vote no on The Dark Princess. Too ambiguous for me to feel comfortable qualifying her and the proposed write up strongly implies that she has no concept of the effect of her actions. It hasn't been mentioned that she had a death wish so I seriously doubt that she is consciously going to kill herself along with the entire universe.
I will only cut down the spoiler tags on the Complete Monster article. On the Red Vs Blue YMMV page, I will have to leave all of that spoiled since it carries a huge reveal that must remain spoiled at all costs (in case you can't tell, it's the fact that Locus and Felix are part of a third party and have been manipulating the civil war on Chorus). It isn't merely Felix's actions that I'm trying to hide, it's what this all has to do with the arc that needs to be hidden.
Lizzid people!
@bobg: Yeah, I have to agree with Sophia on this. The Dark Princess might be too ambiguous to really qualify for this trope. However, if you're able to give some good evidence that her actions were clear, bobg, I may reconsider.
edited 3rd Oct '14 5:09:45 AM by AustinDR
Morgen: I'll vote for the Shinzo examples. Do we know anything else about the Skullgirl ones? Eliza does sound real bad even with those factored in.
Satoshi: We need it unspoiled for main page, period. This is a major spoiler trope, but leaving some spoilers for the YMMV page is alright.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Well...if it's a recent spoiler, and a HUGE one, AND it's possible to spoil a part of it, it's been done (see Akakios and Clairvoyant).
Yes, that's true. However, with those, Akakios and Garrett have alternate identities hinging on the twist. We can write an entry for 'The Clairvoyant' and Akakios without spoiling their modern-day identifies.
I'm gonna toss in my vote for Eliza's inclusion.