During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
The request should be made long time ago. I was not even in this thread; I am brand new. As I get more time, I will try to make an effortpost on Lord Cotys. But I have work to do and it won't be anytime soon. bye.
edited 30th Jul '14 10:23:05 AM by holders
You made the request, right, Austin? Also, ![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to Aunt Ruth. And speaking of cuts, even though I'm a little late to it, there's an entry on Western Animation that's been bugging me for a while. I saw that it was brought up way back last November, but it was never dealt with any further.
- Freddie as F.R.O.7: Messina the cobra witch may be the queen of Evilmainya, but she also pulled being a monster off by killing Freddie's parents to become ruler using her evil magic. She gets worse as Freddie was turned into a frog, nearly trapping Nessie with a boulder, teaming up with El Supremo, killing her henchmen and transforming herself into a snake, hyena, etc.
First off, that writeup is... not exactly the best. Secondly, this is generic animated movie villain evil. This isn't even up to the standard of what most Disney villains do. It's not enough to call her something like a Complete Monster. I say we cut it.
edited 30th Jul '14 12:21:34 PM by Scraggle
Lizzid people!
I did, but the admins were just slow.
I searched to see if anyone suggested Gideon from Gravity Falls (Western Animation).
His offenses: He at first seemed like a nice guy with a harmless crush on Mabel, but let his true colors show when she rejected him. You may think his crush on Mabel is his only redeeming quality, but he has shown to be fully willing to kill her after she kept saying no. He tried to cut out Dipper's tongue and kill him simply because he thinks Dipper is the reason Mabel won't date him. He is abusive towards his parents. His mother is shown to be a nervous wreck for something Gideon did, and threatens his father when he was just trying to comfort him. After he gained control of the Mystery Shack, it was implied that he abused Waddles.
Freudian Excuse: None at the moment.
While he does have a goofy sounding voice, most of his malicious acts aren't Played for Laughs.
Subject to Even Evil Has Standards to Bill Cipher, who may or may not be more evil than him, and implications don't make a villain: that's offscreen villainy. He fails the heinous standard needed at the moment, but there's a new season coming out very soon. Gideon will most likely be returning, even if he was arrested at the end of the season, and there's still a lot to be revealed. If we're going to ever discuss him, let's wait for a time we know he's defeated for good. ![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
for now.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Alright, Koba's now added. I also made some minor stylistic edits to Gian Carlo. Anyone gonna write up Deathshead?
edited 30th Jul '14 1:02:27 PM by ACW
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Lizzid people!
Alright, just made the request on Koba. I also made the request to take Messina off of Monster.Western Animationdue to generic villainy.
Gravity Falls example? No, just no. That show is way too much of a sugar bowl for anyone to qualify. Everything is either played for laughs or not dark enough. If MLP can't have a complete monster, I don't see how a similar children's show can have one either. Adventure Time at least got pretty dark at some points and the Lich was played seriously. Having seen a few episodes of Gravity Falls, I'm just going to say no. If someone has any new information, I'd be happy to hear it.
It's like Spongebob. Despite Dennis not being played for laughs, he exists in an extreme sugar bowl (though to be fair post-movie episodes have been relying on gross visuals and disturbing content.
I really don't think Gravity Falls is dark enough to have a Complete Monster. Chances are, he'll be redeemed in the future anyway.
Also on the subject of Smithy, I wasn't really suggesting that he qualified, I was just wondering if we ever discussed him. I was fairly certain he didn't qualify, but I just wanted to make sure. I just worry somebody might suggest someone like Cackletta or Fawful. Mario villains generally don't qualify.
Any remarks on the MLP fanworks Alternative Character Interpretation example I posted a page ago? Has anyone even read The Great Slave King?
edited 30th Jul '14 1:26:00 PM by Klavice
Lizzid people!
Never say never, Klavice.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
What fanfic was he from again?
I made some small changes to Charles's CM entry...I believe that he set the kitchen on fire rather than the cellar now that I think of it...as I said, my memory is a bit fuzzy...then I remember the big plot twist at the end. As I said, he reminded me of Barkis Bittern and David of the Last Of Us...so I decided to mention him to see if you agreed...which you did.
Charles, Judith's creepy forty-year-old cousin, is rapidly established to be a Dirty Old Man even before it becomes apparent that he is the villain...but as it is gradually revealed, he crossed the Moral Event Horizon three years before the book even began. After the Title Character (as well as the ghost that is haunting the household of the book) rejected his advances towards her, he proceeded to murder her and chop off her hand when she tried to defend herself. After Judith likewise rejects him in favor of the miller's son Zeke, he plans to murder her as well, though not before raping her. He also set the kitchen of those who offered him shelter (as he is unemployed and an alcoholic) on fire to collect the money in Uncle Geoffrey's will after he planned to give a percentage of his money to Judith once he passed away.
Plankton himself didn't seem particularly frightened of Dennis...he in fact seemed to look up to him.
edited 30th Jul '14 3:02:49 PM by Cakeman
Lizzid people!
He was never seen onscreen with Dennis.
Foreign Troper
On Girl next Door: Aunt Ruth is a really despicable person and I WANT her to count, but the sad thing is that her cruelty is all targeted towards the two adopted girls. She loves her own three sons.
Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
Lizzid people!
Doesn't she allow her sons to rape them, though? And do they only do so, because they were afraid of their mother? Essentially what I'm asking is does her supposed "love" for her sons remotely love at all, or is it that they only follow her because they were afraid of her?
edited 30th Jul '14 2:16:20 PM by AustinDR
The fanfic the example was from is called The Great Slave King. The example describes the eponymous slave king as a Complete Monster. It doesn't say that he is, it just says he might be one. I think it should still be cut for being a Zero context example.
Also, I still think Simpsons and Gravity Falls should be added to the never discuss again list for now, since (at the moment and possibly for the rest of both show's run) there isn't a person who counts as a Complete Monster.
The only person from Simpsons I could ever see qualifying is possibly Mr. burns, but even he has shown redeeming qualities and/or isn't heinous enough. Russ Cargill was another maybe, but I believe he was voted down a couple years ago.
edited 30th Jul '14 2:53:42 PM by Klavice
Well, he seemed rather excited when he referred to him as a cold-blooded predator...
Lizzid people!
It was only an evilgasm.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Yeah...I don't think Plankton was ever freaked out by him though...and what he did in that film was worse than simply being a hitman...
edited 30th Jul '14 4:34:26 PM by Cakeman
I approve putting the Simpsons on the never again list. Even people like Sideshow Bob and Burns are all played for comedy and have redeeming traits. Gravity Falls, on the other hand, is gradually getting darker. Besides, the show's next season premieres in about two days, so no, don't add that.
I'll also have an effort post for another villain I think may count soon.
While my pasta's cooking, I'm going to play Devil's Advocate and say The Simpsons does have a potential CM candidate: Cecil Terwilliger. Cecil is an Eviller Counterpart to his brother Sideshow Bob. Despite initially showing Faux Affably Evil mannerisms, his evil deeds are Played for Drama, marking a downturn in the series' usual humour. Eseentially, he's a Knight of Cerebus.
A disreputable engineer, he intended to build a shoddy, unsafe dam and while embezzling the funds. In a petty example of oneupmanship, he tries to do what his brother never could and kill Bart, by throwing him from the top of the dam. After Bob has a rare Pet the Dog moment and throws Bart a line, Cecil crosses the Moral Event Horizon by attempting to shoot the dynamite attached to it, immediately killing Bart and his own brother, and drowning the rest of Springfield's population.
It's suggested earlier that he has a redeeming quality in caring for his brother, only for that to be subverted in the scenario described above. In a brief appearance in a later episode, he sheds tears at his brother's funeral, while being aware that he is only Faking the Dead and that this a set-up to catch Bart, hinting that he's a skilled sociopathic manipulator.
While being a character in a comedy, Cecil eclipses many villains from serious crime dramas in the heinousness of his actions. If a mostly light-hearted kids' show like The Powerpuff Girls can have a CM, why not The Simpsons?
edited 30th Jul '14 7:29:46 PM by BigglesTh9
Russ Cargill was willing to blow up all of Springfield and every resident inside and was willing to shoot both father and son with a shotgun, yet he was voted down. Cecil only sounds as heinous as Cargill. I'm also aware he has a Freudian Excuse, and that's the reason why he hates his brother so much. Add in the little fact he gave Lisa a hug after realizing they're not so different and that's a solid, solid .
edited 30th Jul '14 7:53:08 PM by Scraggle
Lizzid people!
Except, Cargill had a good reason for blowing up Springfield. He thought he was saving everyone else from the town's radiation. And besides, the world might've been better off without Springfield.
And for those who have seen The Girl Next Door, I really disagree with Ruth's supposed love for her sons. Is it that she loves them to the extent that she doesn't want them to tell the authorities about the abuse that she flings on her nieces, or does she manage to show true love for them, even if it doesn't benefit her in the slightest?
Doesn't mean his actions weren't heinous. Both of these villains don't count.
Make the request.