During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Actually, I just looked and didn't see any votes on him; my guess though is that he's probably not as bad as Mathias.
edited 25th Jul '14 6:11:20 AM by ACW
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
That was it, IIRC.
That, and honestly, as bad as he gets, he ultimately comes off as a Smug Snake blowhard whose in way over his head, and his death scene is arguably comical giving how boneheaded he acts right beforehand.
My apologies, I never paid much attention to this game so when I saw him ask about the tomb raider reboot I just defaulted to the only villain I knew.
Cleric of Banjo
Think I'll give a ![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to Ellen. I wouldn't consider that friendship redeeming- it's one of those "bonding over a shared love of evil" cases, and neither party actually seems to have any loyalty to the other in this situation.
edited 25th Jul '14 7:04:49 AM by Hodor
Edit, edit, edit, edit the wiki
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
I found 
Thor: Vikings online and will probably read it tonight.
@ Hodor, the demon does keep his part of the deal, he does seem to enjoy trolling her, and he does call Ellen "my fair witch" so he may care about her to a certain extant (even if he never really shows it) but Ellen mostly seems to see him as a co worker she has to tolerate. She does not seem to hate him (which is rare for someone so evil), but while she does bond with him over the suffering of others, calling them "friends" is a bit difficult. They do get along a bit better than some other evil partners, but the demon is willing to destroy Ellen if she does not bring him souls in a timely fashion, and Ellen is willing to use him as a lab rat for her spells (though since he can always possess another cat, it's not really that big a deal for him). They seem to straddle the line between "frenemies" and Vitriolic Best Buds.
jjj
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
I created Law And Order Monsters to clean up the grammar and add episode recap potholes and such. I should be able to knock it off this weekend (and I know we agreed they're okay, but I may propose a Keamy condensing).
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Lizzid people!
@bobg: But again, is it even a redeeming factor? That is what I'm asking for.
edited 25th Jul '14 12:17:28 PM by AustinDR
@ Austin, well, the demon is a soul sucking monster, but of course, any sort of friendship automaticlly disqualifies a character from this trope no matter how many terrible evil things they have done, or how evil the friend themselves is. Ellen does more than enough to meet the heinouess standard, an her backstory of being born ill, and being ignored by her parents and never having any friends, tragic though it is, is insuficant. Her actions erase any sympathy her backstory could give her. So, it all comes down to rather or not she cared about the demon. It's a make or break factor. And honestly, it's hard to tell if she cared about him or not. It is frustrating because unless a clear decision is made, she can not be judged. There relationship is complicated. At most, I would say that there friendship is not a very healthy one. Rsther or not it's redeeming is up to you. I would say that Ellen has never particulary liked him.
jjj
Lizzid people!
So then she passes all of the criteria, then?
@ Austin, guess so. If no one minds, I will take the write up to the edit requests later today.
jjj
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
- The Witch's House: Ellen killed her parents and burned their house down at the age of seven. Ellen later went on to kill many people and sacrifice their souls to a demon in exchange for a way to prolong her life long enough for her to find a cure for her illness. Upon learning of a spell that would allow her to switch bodies with a healthy person, she falsely befriended a young girl named Viola. Before swapping bodies with Viola, Ellen cut off her own legs and gouged out her own eyes so that after the switch, Viola would suffer and die in Ellen’s maimed body. Ellen then force fed Viola a burning medicine that fried her throat and left her mute simply because her screams of agony annoyed her. Ellen then taunted the now blind, mute, and crippled Viola, and tricked Viola's father into shooting his own daughter dead, laughing cruelly afterward.
edited 25th Jul '14 2:34:57 PM by ACW
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Lizzid people!
This is one of those cases in which a Freudian Excuse explains why a villain became evil, but it does not excuse the villain's actions in the present. I'm convinced that this girl is entirely evil, especially when she tricked the father into murdering his daughter.
Given that Colonel Zol and N-Daguva-Zeba got enough votes, it's high time we get some entries submitted. Here are my drafts:
Colonel Zol:
- There’s a reason why Colonel Bakarashin Iinodevitch Zol of 1971's Kamen Rider continues to be the franchise’s definitive monster to this day. After serving as a Nazi officer in World War II, Zol joins Shocker where he gains a reputation for wreaking havoc in the Middle East. He quickly lives up to this reputation when he’s transferred to Japan to deal with Kamen Rider Nigo. He fails to show any sense of shame for his crimes, ranging from brainwashing children into becoming Shocker guerilla soldiers to using Wolfsbane to gas attack Goro’s town. Colonel Zol is also a horrible boss to his men. Case in point: Zol praises a revived Egyptus, a mummy kaijin that can incinerate victims, for testing his abilities on (and ultimately killing) one of his mooks. The sequel Kamen Rider V3 only adds to his crimes. Together with Doctor G, a revived Zol plans to initiate Operation: Japan Annilhilation, which involves unleashing a toxic gas in Hokkaido to kill innocents. Zol also does not care about fellow Shocker and Destron officers at all, as seen when he tries to have fellow Destron officer Ambassador Hell executed for failing to defeat Kamen Rider V3.
N-Daguva-Zeba:
- The Big Bad of Kamen Rider Kuuga is N-Daguva-Zeba, the lord of the Gurongi and the Ur-CM of the Heisei era. An Ax-Crazy Blood Knight who absolutely despises the lowly and weak, Daguva doesn’t care about any human or Gurongi lives, and is willing to use any means necessary to make humanity as violent and hateful as he. Upon being reawaked from Kuuga’s sarcophagus, he releases the 200 Gurongi and murders the archaeologists, thereby kicking off the series. After his escape, he restarts the Gegeru, a game where Gurongi hunt humans with set rules based on their tribe's social status, and kills 152 of his own kind in Nagano. He then reveals himself to the public by killing Zu-Gooma-Gu for using his armor before resurfacing under the guise of a white-suited teenager with an aura as he unleashes heavy rain in Japan. After Yusuke Godai (Kamen Rider Kuuga) defeats Gadoru, Daguva ambushes Kuuga, mercilessly beats him up, and incinerates numerous people in his wake as he leaves Yusuke behind. After continuing his systematic genocide, he meets Yusuke in Mount Kuro where they have their final fight. There, Daguva finally dies, laughing to the very end hoping that Yusuke would be corrupted by violent hatred.
Abigail Williams and Wilford entries are coming real soon. Let me know if there are any more votes regarding the latter (see post 27983).
edited 25th Jul '14 4:58:34 PM by sanfranman91
Together, we are one.
@ ACW, Ellen was born with some undefined illness that left her weak. The illnss meant that she would not live long. Her parents ignored her and she never had any friends. Ellen killed her parents for ignoring her, and afterward, she met the demon. The demon offered to give her magic powers and eternal youth and life so she could look for a cure for her illness in exchange for killing people and sending there souls to him. For every soul the demon increased her powers. After killing countless people, She gained a body switching spell. The spell would only work if the victim was compliant, so Ellen falsely befriended Viola and told her all about her magic powers, her illness, and the way her parents ignored her (leaving out the fact that she killed them and used her powers for evil, along with the fact that she killed people and fed there souls to a demon of course), simply to get Viola to feel sorry for her. Ellen asked if she could have Viola's body "just for a day" (bullshit) so she could feel what it was like to be healthy. Viola very foolishly agreed and the rest is history. Yes, she did torture Viola just for fun. She could have left her to die of the illness alone, but she instead decided to make her suffer. She also shows exreme joy in taunting her about how she will never she her father again, and how she will take her place "I'll give him Violas share of love, and I'll TAKE her share of love too. How does that sound?".
Here is the villains wiki description of Ellens personality:
"Ellen is depicted as a cruel character and hated by fans of the game for taking everything Viola had. While Violas friendship seemed genuine ad she agreed to the (supposedly temporary) switch, Ellen had no intention of keeping her word. She even tricked Violas father into killing her (in Ellens body, thinking he was protecting his daughter.) Ellen is shown to be completely selfish and feels no regret for the many deaths she's caused. She even laughs before following Viola's father home, clearly amused at her trick. She also demonstrates no regret at sacrificing a frog who had been helpful to her earlier in the game, feeding it to a giant snake so she could pass".
edited 25th Jul '14 3:32:25 PM by bobg
jjj
Lizzid people!
The writeups look good, Sanfran .
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
For Ellen. The thing that makes it from a ![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
to a is the torture and the joy she apparently takes.
Okay so I have gotten approval from Shaokan, ACW, and I'm guessing Austin. I'll take the write up to the edit request than. First Villain Protagonist example from a game(though you do not know it until the very end).
PS: Truman sounds like a keeper to me. Why do comics always have such characters?
jjj
I don't see what's so strange about comics having a Complete Monster compared to other mediums.
It's the number of them that astounds me. Marvel and DC each have more than Star Wars. They are supposed to be things kids read a lot right? imagine a 10 year old reading one of there favorite comics and coming across these characters.
jjj
Comics aren't just for kids though, even the big 2 have more adult reading fans than kids. Also, a good deal of these monsters are from creator owned works, so they don't have to always write with a child audience in mind.
edited 3rd Aug '14 11:08:53 AM by VeryMelon
I'd almost forgotten I'd done the effortpost on Gian Carlo. I think he's got enough votes to go up, though if one or two more were given I'd be more comfortable.
I'm going to give "yes" votes on the characters than Sanfranman did the effortposts for. I'd meant to a while back but it slipped my mind.
It might make more sense if you think about it this way—Superman has been in continuous, nonstop publication since 1938. Batman has been in the same since 1939. In that time period, Superman has faced three opponents (Mongul I, Brainiac, Superboy-Prime) who qualify, and Batman only one or two more. That's not that many honestly.
Gian Carlo
I'm sorry, but if Ellen's just only using the demon to satisfy her own means, then I don't believe that her "friendship" with the demon means anything.