Superhero Concept -- How good are these names?

Regardless of what your definition of Mighty Whitey is, it still doesn't change the fact that Ultimate Lazer isn't doing that. His character isn't - as you put it - "[saving] brown culture by surpassing brown people at their own culture," but rather is a character with an appreciation for manga that he manifests through his powers. Now if he was going to Japan, teaming up with a bunch of Japanese kids with the exact same powers who'd had them longer, and yet he was somehow better than them, then he'd be playing Mighty Whitey straight as fuck. But again, that's not what he's doing.

And in agreement with , there's a sort of xenophobia present when grilling someone not from a particular culture for enjoying it. It gives off a "this is mine, you can't have it" vibe, which is really unhealthy when talking about normalizing and accepting other cultures. Eventually you have to not only accept that people outside that culture are going to enjoy the facets of it, but you also have to appreciate their interest as well. Otherwise you don't have a leg to stand on when talking diversity, as diversity inherently means a vast collection of differences spanning everyone, including majorities.

I second not changing his race.

EDIT: Page topper. Lovely.

edited 7th Dec '16 10:59:52 PM by randomdude4

What else can "a white boy who draws manga gets a magical artbook and LITERALLY GETS DEEMED 'CHOSEN'" come off as besides "a white dude is exceptional at an Asian art form"?

As for appropriation versus appreciation: I'm not saying nobody should ever go outside of their own culture without an explicit invitation from insiders.

I'm saying that as an Asian-American, I have a pretty good idea that seeing yet another white guy be a magical manga artist—regardless of whether he's THE BEST manga artist, or just one of many different types of artists—will not go over well with a lot of non-white readers.

The only thing they're going to see is "White Dude + Magic + Azn skillz," which is probably going to get an eye-roll or an angry/hurt/disappointed review. The motivation is not a jealous "stay away from our stuff," it's "you've been taking our stuff without asking for centuries, and you really only use it to make yourselves look speshul. Please stop." This will be exceptionally strong in the superhero genre, thanks to all the white Orientalist kung-fu superheroes flooding the medium.

A lot of minorities are trained to avoid this kind of character because it hurts on a cultural level. It's Pavlovian conditioning for your emotions.

"Brown culture is used to showcase how special white characters are." > "This hurts me as a person of the brown culture in question, or as a person whose culture has gone through similar things." > "Let's leave so it stops hurting." (Meaning to turn off the TV, close the browser/tab, or stop reading the book.)

That's why I'm reacting so strongly—in a way, I'm not just reacting to this particular character called Incarnate. I'm also reacting to (memories of) Iron Fist, Dr. Strange, the Phantom—even parts of Batman's canon don't gel with me now that I'm not a Hormone-Addled Teenager swooning over him anymore. And Batman is my homeboy.

Now that people are telling the OP not to listen to me, my thought process is something like:

"White Dude + Manga + Magic? THIS PATTERN HURTS. MAKE IT STOP." > "I told them that this upsets me, and how to change it so they don't hurt other people." > "They're going to keep doing it." > "LET'S LEAVE SO IT STOPS HURTING."

None of this is remotely the whole story, but that's an idea of what minorities have to deal with when they see a white dude being a magical manga artist. While my rational mind wants to help out with this story, my animal-brain is mindlessly howling "THIS HURTS, MAKE IT STOP" and it's been bleeding through in my other posts.

Does this make my argument clearer? At least I gave my input, so I guess I'll read the story and see if it works better in writing than it does as a concept.

edited 8th Dec '16 1:03:39 AM by Sharysa

Well, white people who can draw in the style of manga are a thing. Animesque is a real trope and I don't see the harm in this. I think it might have gone a little out of hand. I'll post some more characters soon to get this back on track.

I'm black I wanna become a mangaka someday, does that mean I'm racist? no, the same could be said for his character (though personally I still firmly believe changing his race would save you the trouble)

and the beastly animal inside, screaming? the more I hear you and crystalglacia talk, the more I want to slap the red oni and blue oni trope on you (I'm saying this in a joking matter, however.) but seriously, I can see why you're angry. getting the opportunity to see an Asian character to embrace their culture is something rare nowadays and I can understand why you're mad about it. I can see why some people might be complaining about luke cage being devoid of white people (though, I have a gut feeling white might show up at some point. this is coming from someone who hasn't seen the show yet.) and finally why it might bring up some racist implications to the matter. but at least calm down and don't end acting like a triggered girl on Tumblr.

edited 8th Dec '16 4:53:19 AM by ewolf2015

Eh? So are me and Sharysa in a Red Oni, Blue Oni pair because she gets very passionate about issues like race while I don't? We all find different things important, and for me, that thing isn't race.

I wasn't planning on posting in this thread for pretty much that reason- I'm of Chinese descent, but I'm very disconnected from how many minorities in America experience their race or ethnicity. I was one of the first direct-from-China adoptions in northwest Ohio, but I'm not really interested in my culture or heritage, and throughout my life, the only people who have given me and my (also Chinese adopted) sister any kind of trouble about our race is ethnic Chinese classmates, probably because we're not Chinese enough. Even then, it's mild disdain at worst and they're easy enough for us to avoid and ignore.

So I guess it's time for my two cents, as a Chinese person who regularly forgets she's Chinese. Concepts don't show the whole story, and there are a number of ways that you can write this character so that he's not offensive. You've stated that he's already one of many others, not the most important one of them, not the best at using his powers, and that you're not going to focus on his backstory much. The character concept itself would be problematic if you were using him as your main protagonist, had him save the day disproportionately more often than other characters on his team, began his part of the story with his origin and handled it poorly, or had his involvement and use of manga art be instrumental to solving a big problem involving lots of white people or Asian people, but that doesn't seem to be what you're doing. You could make someone else on the sketchbook team the team's 'face', divide screentime among them equally, introduce him after some other teammates, show him being less skilled than other teammates, show him and others bonding over and interacting about things that do not inherently have to do with race, treat his preference for manga art like an artistic choice that confers no real benefits other than aesthetics, the list goes on.

My suggestion is to try writing it first, keeping him white and keeping what you've been told in mind, and then get it looked at and see if he needs his race changed. Because if you handle it right, you should get someone for whom being of some race and preferring an aesthetic not from his home culture are incidental to the rest of his character. His story would be ultimately about overcoming bullying, the power of teamwork, and following his passion. This is also my personal experiences talking, but in my view, a story that includes racial issues should have the underlying theme that at the end of the day, we're all human.

edited 8th Dec '16 7:43:29 PM by CrystalGlacia

claps, here's a medal

Ultimate Lazer, I told you THE EXACT WAY that Incarnate irritates me by falling into so many stereotypical patterns, which has a big chance of upsetting other minorities. Of course I understand your intentions are good. But it's not you or your writing that's problematic, it's the many racist douchebags who came before you and associated a concept like "person enjoys a different culture from their own" (good) with "person swoops into a different culture and outshines the lifelong members of it, and somehow everyone's okay" (bad).

You keep saying you want to handle ethnicity and culture properly but aren't settled on changing Incarnate's character, so if you end up keeping him white, you'll need to acknowledge his problematic background in-story at some point.

Have a minority team member spot him doing manga and snark "yay, a Mighty Whitey who wields magical manga art—let's use him as a Human Shield so the brown people don't die too fast." This will inevitably hurt his feelings as a reminder of his bullying, but then force him to ask why they made that remark, and the response would be something like "white people are ALWAYS having fantasies of being The Last Samurai and doing manga or kung-fu."

So he'll go "I don't do that, I just really like manga and the magical art-book showed up at my door." To which the minority goes "yeah, and Danny Rand's plane happened to crash in Asia, where he happened to become a magical kung-fu master. We see this story SO. MANY. TIMES."

Even if you don't mention it too much afterward, there's going to be some subtext that he's REALLY aware of how stereotypical he looks from that point on.

that's pretty dark if it goes on a bit. (not that I'm suggesting he does something to himself)...god, I feel like shit. I guess no one wins. we've tried I'll best to help and I hope you can clean up your mistakes.

You see, I'm trying not to make a big deal about that sort of thing except when absolutely necessary. This is because it takes place in the future (2050s), where racism and homophobia have largely faded. I can see where you're coming from, though.

I have more characters to post. Before I get into detail, I have to ask what you think of an interracial, intergenerational, multinational LGBT relationship that's in the story but isn't made too big a deal of. I've had this in my head for a while, and I decided that before I post them in full I would share this here, mainly due to the whole debacle regarding Incarnate.

This involves two heroes: Amazon / Zeena Steyn, a 34-year-old statuesque model from Cape Town, South Africa who can turn herself into a blue-skinned amazonian-like figure with special powers including Super-Strength, and Wingspan / Madison Mei Miyamoto, a 19-year-old Chinese-Japanese-American hailing from Oakland, who is a petite scientist that operates a flight suit that includes wings (hence the name) and uses dual pistols with sticky bombs.

For the record, Zeena is lesbian while Madison is bisexual. The real thing I'm trying portray how Society Marches On is the fact that some people think their relationship is a bit weird, but only because there's a fifteen year age difference between them. However, that is true to life as there are many relationships where an older person and a younger person (usually male and female, respectively) where the relationship is genuine. That's what I'm trying to do here. Otherwise, they're characters with personalities outside of that, and get asked "how's your girlfriend?" in a genuine way that a person would ask someone in a heterosexual relationship.

Ewolf, I'm confused. You don't seem to treat my suggestions very seriously since you're constantly telling me to chill, but then you start feeling bad after a day or two to think about it?

Plus, when did I ever say "Ultimate Lazer is damned if they do this particular character?" Yes, I got really intense, but I still gave MULTIPLE suggestions on how to deal with this stereotype: Either by making Incarnate not-white and therefore removing the Unfortunate Implications of Mighty Whitey overtones, or by keeping him white and having at least one minority team-mate lampshade how he sounds exactly like a Mighty Whitey stereotype.

You can totally reconstruct this hypothetical conversation into something good. Once he recovers from his hurt feelings, Incarnate could gain a greater understanding of how privileged he is as a white dude (especially as a white dude in a superhero story), because his minority team-mates consider themselves marked for death now that he's here. Most people wouldn't want their teammates to die, so he'd logically make an effort to start helping them out. Not to prove that he's one of the "good" white people, but because he's a good PERSON who cares about his team-mates and he feels bad that they feel expendable.

edited 8th Dec '16 7:02:05 PM by Sharysa

No offense dude, but that idea sounds terrible and obnoxiously preachy. You make it sound like you want his teammates to be sympathetic with that approach, but to me they just seem like massive racist dicks. And this still doesn't change the fact - as you continue to ignore - that Incarnate isn't surpassing anyone of that native culture to begin with. You didn't at all acknowledge Crystal Glacia's post, which was incredibly well thought out and written, and you keep trying to hammer in a point no one agrees with you on. Just let it go.

I didn't tell them to take it or leave it, I just suggested that they acknowledge Incarnate's potential backlash SOMEHOW in-story. I spent about five minutes thinking up that "conversation," so it's not exactly print-worthy.

Anyway, here's my response to Ultimate Lazer.

I have a Chinese/Black male-male couple where the Chinese member is bi in Takotsubo, so yay for accidental counterparts. They're only a few years apart, though.

The only thing that really bugs me is that I'd prefer the Asian girl NOT be petite/delicate, especially not with a supermodel who probably runs on the tall side. There are too many Petite Asian Dolls in the media, so make her average height and well-built in the manner of a Wrench Wench instead of an Asian techie.

edited 8th Dec '16 7:19:42 PM by Sharysa

I'm glad to see that others see this isn't a problem, nor is the same-sex relationship. I think it's time we put it in the past and continue forward. He's also got a point, it wouldn't make the others sympathetic as much as it would make them seem like total dicks.

Sorry but serious isn't part of my vocabulary. Call me insane but the reason I don take thing's seriously is because I'm just a human being with a short span. You can't spend your life just being serious all the time. Rather I take things in more logical and mature route. Is it the same as taking things seriously? Maybe, maybe not. And since laser said that his story took place in 2050s which means such ideas would rarely pop up. The same could be said for one of my works, nightslayer 2100, where people celebrate diversity in gender, orientation, relationships, race, etc. Is there still bigotry, of course there is, they may have reach point where they can look past their differences and work together as a family/community. But, most of them are still human and it can shows sometimes (though you might end up getting tossed into the ringers).

So what does it have to do with this? A few things actually, one being we should look past our differences and not soap on labels because someone is doing something you don't like. Sharysa, you a well meaning person, you've taught me a lot about things I couldn't give a second thought. But I do have state that I have to disagree with somethings with you. I may have not read the bio but from what I've heard, he's not much of a mighty Whitney but just some guy. Problematic in some ways yes but just a guy nevertheless. So I say to you this, and this is a really stupid question I know you have a few white characters under your belt, what role does your white characters play? And for you later, what might your characters of color play into it?

Man....what a rant, if you can call it one. It's more like an incoherent mess of a rant.

Ewolf: You really only see me on the forums, and I'm not even serious all the time on HERE. My sense of humor is just fine when I'm not discussing writing, especially not writing that specifically deals with race.

Ultimate Lazer: I didn't expect you to copy-paste it straight from the forums, so that's... okay, I guess? Here's the pattern I'm noticing:

-
"X might not go over well. It sounds a lot like Y and it's been played out a LOT."

"But the story's in a post-racial society, and X isn't completely Y."

"Yeah, but the genre is infamous for Y and the audience isn't going to ignore how a lot of X's pieces line up with that."

"But the story is post-racial."

[Rinse and repeat.]

-
See, Star Trek was set in a post-racial society waaaaaaaay farther than a few decades. The writers were as unprejudiced as you could get for the 1960s, but they still had to deal with the 1960s studio prejudice and the 1960s audience prejudice.

It's never good to pander too much to the base, but completely ignoring the audience isn't good either. I feel that relying too much on your story being "in the future and not concerned with race" is a litttttttle optimistic, since you're dealing with an audience who's VERY concerned with it due to our recent President-Elect.

And now, back to your previously scheduled character ideas.

edited 8th Dec '16 9:01:31 PM by Sharysa

Something unrelated, but I was thinking about changing Dr. Syd Wilson's codename from "Dr. Death" to "Witch Doctor". Admittedly, Dr. Death is rather cheesy and the justification was that it was a Red Baron name rather than a codename because he is very brutal in how he goes about his inhuman experiments.

But I was thinking that Witch Doctor sounds a little more natural, and still alludes to his nature. He's the one who brainwashes innocent people into loyal minions by altering their mind and emotions to suit his and/or his employers liking. He does it through science, involving a combination of his knowledge of technological, medical, and biological fields. That, and Cold-Blooded Torture. Mist's resident Perky Female Minion B. Hood (formerly known as Lucia Gane) is one such example of a member being "recruited" like this.

Outside of that, he's also known for Playing with Syringes to alter someone's body to better suit their purpose. Sometimes it ends in disaster, but there's always more "specimen" for him. Anyways, Witch Doctor is a name that I think sounds a little better. What do you think of it?

Since "witch doctor" is used often as a derisive insult to people who use questionable and unscientific metods in their job as medics, I don't think that a villain would use this name as his alias in front of his subjects. The thing about names like Doctor Doom or "Deathstroke the Terminator" is that, even if they sound cheesy, their meaning is connected to despair, suffer, and negative feelings that are supposed to be menacing, and the character adopting it wants to evoke those feelings regardless if in paper they seem a 8 year old's idea: action speaks louder than words, after all. Still, if you want to keep the magical theme in his name you could try something similar like "Mage Doctor".

edited 9th Dec '16 2:48:07 AM by Lampodigenio

Regarding Witch Doctor: Given that in-universe it's a name given to him by the public, it kinda fits. Especially if it starts off as "(Insert primary location of visible activity) Witch Doctor", like media occasionally does to serial killers whose identity remains unknown. And later on, when he starts operating on a wider scale, the media drops the location from his name and just starts calling him Witch Doctor.

Also, a possible Fridge Brilliance: what we usually think of when thinking of a "witch doctor" is a Hollywood Voodoo user who creates zombies (the voodoo kind). Which aren't necessarily undead, just soulless. As in, completely lost their identities and minds, and unquestioningly serve the one who made them become like that. Sound familiar at all?

sorry for assuming you not funny but your sense of humor never really made me chuckle. maybe i haven't had enough time to understand you more but that could reason i assumed you were serious, especially with sensitive issues like race or GSM people. I'm also sorry for ending up making fool of myself back there maybe were could make it up?

that ideas is quite nice actually.

edited 9th Dec '16 7:53:40 AM by ewolf2015

I very rarely do "mainstream haha jokes," so there's a 90% chance some of my "serious" statements are sarcasm that I forgot to mark.

"Witch-doctor" is especially connected to Lousiana thanks to all the Hollywood Voodoo taking place there, so I get the feeling he'd either come from there, or he ended up working there for a while and the name people gave him stuck. Here in California, that term is almost exclusively used for Hollywood Voodoo movies. (We use "shaman" or "bruja/brujo" for our own "malicious witchy people." )

As for "person who uses black magic to hypnotize/control people," the actual term in Vodun is "bokor," but they range more along True Neutral or Punch-Clock Villain—as a group they aren't really aligned with anyone, and individuals can help or harm people whenever they want.

sarcasm isn't really that funny to me. i can't even tell the difference between what a person meant and what person actually meant.

— "Have a minority team member spot him doing manga and snark "yay, a Mighty Whitey who wields magical manga art—let's use him as a Human Shield so the brown people don't die too fast." This will inevitably hurt his feelings as a reminder of his bullying, but then force him to ask why they made that remark, and the response would be something like "white people are ALWAYS having fantasies of being The Last Samurai and doing manga or kung-fu." So he'll go "I don't do that, I just really like manga and the magical art-book showed up at my door." To which the minority goes "yeah, and Danny Rand's plane happened to crash in Asia, where he happened to become a magical kung-fu master. We see this story SO. MANY. TIMES."—

See, Incarnate's appropriate response to this scenario realistically would be "That sounds more like your problem than mine." Seriously, reverse the races of the two people involved, replace "manga" with, say, playing piano or violin or any Western art form or style, and you know exactly what you'd say to the person making the negative comments. I should hope the response of anyone seeing a kid of any culture or any race drawing manga really, really well would be "Hey you're really good. I like manga too."

I mean, what would be the point of Incarnate's considering that his being a great manga-ka might offend some Asian folks? Should he then say 'gee, I guess because I'm white I shouldn't do this, because it might piss off some people?" Go to Japan, and you'll find Manga about Japanese boxers, basketball players, tennis players, golfers, baseball players, and even Japanese French Chefs, for heaven's sake. None of those is native to Japan or Asia, but I promise you that if the writers of said comics ever consider the possible negative feelings of Westerners to having a Japanese protagonist be excellent at these Western-originated skills, it only to have the haters be won over by the Japanese protagonist's skill and passion, or to show the hater as the small minded twit he or she is. This is to say nothing of the variety of fantasy manga series that have co-opted the Catholic Church and had it serve in a variety of capacities (heroic, villainous, and Byzantine) or of, for instance, Code Geass which, aside from getting entirely wrong what a Geass is (which was a pet peeve of mine about that series), postulates a British Empire that conquered the world (how's that gonna make Brits feel?).

edited 9th Dec '16 3:23:29 PM by Robbery

Let's not play Oppression Olympics here, alright? "Well, the Japanese do it too!" does not add anything to this particular discussion.

UltimateLazer, I want to ask you this: does Incarnate absolutely have to be a white guy? If so, why? If he was a Mexican, Middle Eastern, or Taiwanese like me, would that really impact his character that much. I'm not saying you have to make him non-white; I'm asking you to think about why he has to be white. Being able to answer this question means that you will have a greater understanding of the character and will be helpful when thinking of character arcs.

I would also recommend considering the following:

• Why does he draw manga-style to begin with? Was he inspired by a manga he really liked? Does he find it easier to draw manga-style? This could be used to help flesh out his character. I, for instance, draw manga style because it was easier for me to draw noses, mouths, and eyebrows that way (I'm not kidding), and because some of my favorite stories were written as manga.
• Why did the notebook choose him? Why him, when there are probably lots more established artists with published works out there? Think about what quality he has that drew the attention of whatever dropped the notebook off with him. This quality can be used to flesh out his character even more. Even if the notebook came to him through sheer luck, it can be used to mold his character; after all, it's pretty telling that he decided to use the power of creation to fight crime, right?
• How much of Yuki's personality was created by Incarnate? If Yuki's incarnated form has a different personality than the Yuki in drawings, it raises an interesting part of Incarnate's power: that how he imagines a thing turning out doesn't necessarily turn out that way once it's incarnated. It also adds a bit of risk to using his powers, such as "Am I sure that the monster I'm drawing right now won't turn around and smash me into paste?"
• If Yuki's personality perfectly matches up with how Incarnate envisions her, think of the temptations that such powers might bring. The power to create something that conforms to your every whim is a power coveted by many and carries lots of temptations. How Incarnate deals with such things can form an interesting character arc if done right.

edited 9th Dec '16 4:04:52 PM by dragonfire5000

He's white because that's how I imagined the character as being that way in my head, which is why I don't want to change the image. I know it might sound lame, but I'm already making sure that my story is extremely diverse by including a multitude of races, nationalities, and ethnicities, as well as sexual preferences. That's why him being white is something that I think isn't a big deal, because it's not like there's a shortage of representation in the story. I also don't like changing someone's race for political correctness reasons, because that in itself (ironically) carries Unfortunate Implications.

Also let's not forget that "weeaboo/wapanaese" insults that white people are likely to get. That was something he had to deal with growing up, as do many anime fans, which is part of the reason why he is white.

Anyways, I'll answer your question:

• He draws that way because that's what he grew up with. It was his fascination with the medium that led to him learning to draw like a mangaka, taking lessons he learned online and developing his craft. To him, he just really appreciates the art style and thinks that people (especially girls) look better that way.
• The book was given to him because he was a relative unknown with established talents and potential. They don't choose famous artists because they don't want them ending up in the wrong hands. Specifically, they wanted someone with just the right talents who could do some good. That's the way its always been.
• That's actually pretty good. The way I imagine it is that he envisioned Yuki as being like this in terms of personality, being a Deadpan Snarker who is also a Punch-Clock Hero, but also has a good heart and does the right thing. He didn't imagine that Yuki would act like this to him, which makes him question many things.
• You have a point there, and I didn't really think about that. It could be something that could be abused, which is why there is a lot of responsibility that goes with it.

"That's why him being white is something that I think isn't a big deal, because it's not like there's a shortage of representation in the story" is not how you handle diversity. Diversity isn't about meeting a quota; it's about handling variety in a way that is both respectful and does not fall upon negative stereotypes that makes unfortunate implications about an entire social group.

Seriously, don't do the whole "Oh, I already have enough diverse characters, so it's fine for this guy to be white!" spiel. It kind of comes across as "Look, I already have this many diverse characters! What do you non-white people want from me?!" Just say "I wanted this guy to be white because I envisioned him that way." It won't stop people from seeing Mighty Whitey, but at least you won't come across as painting diversity as some sort of obligation that people should be thankful you're including.

Oh, and by the way, "weeaboo" is not something that only white people are called. I've had non-white friends called that before, so it's not just white anime fans that deal with it. I wouldn't use that as an explanation as to why Incarnate has to be white. Just stick with the "he was white when I conceptualized him" explanation.

Now, on to the rest of the stuff:

• What made him fascinated with the medium? Why manga in particular? What is it about manga that made him really appreciate the art style? And if there was a particular story that really hooked him, think about how else that particular manga may have impacted his life.
• Why would it falling into the hands of a "famous artist" be a risk of falling into the wrong hands, but not a teenager who dabbles in drawing as a hobby? And why him in particular, and not some other teenager who likes drawing in their spare time? Seriously, I think it would be good for you to think about this a bit and not use "That's just how it's always been." Maybe consider his personality being a key reason for why he got the book. Is it because the powers that be know he's less likely to abuse it's power? Or is it something else?
• What does he question exactly? Also, I do hope you'll use the fact that Yuki didn't turn out the way he envisioned; such a thing raises implications that he might not have complete control over how his drawings turn out, and that can be really interesting in the heat of battle. He'll not only have to be able to draw under pressure, but he'll have to do so knowing that the drawing runs the risk of screwing things up even more. That's a very interesting power right there.
• I would tie this back into the "Why pick the manga-drawing white kid to wield the book" question. If the powers that be only picked a person based on talent, I have a hard time believing that they wouldn't find someone with more experience drawing, especially someone used to drawing at a quicker pace. This is a good chance to flesh out Incarnate's personality and demonstrate what it is about him that lets him wield such a powerful tool that comes with many temptations.

edited 9th Dec '16 8:03:25 PM by dragonfire5000