Broken Base Cleanup

Here's Dragon Ball Xenoverse 2. What do you wanna cut?

• Broken Base:
  • While some of the transformations have been well received, there's been a good deal of debate about the quality of the Nimbus/Power Pole 'transformation' given to human characters. Some are fine with it and defend it saying they didn't have that many options to go with (with pretty much their only other option being Tien's Four Witches technique, or some kind of revisit to the werewolves in the original series), others see it as a complete joke that really doesn't make sense.
  • Should the Saiyan race have Super Saiyan God, Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan, and Super Saiyan 4 transformations? Some say yes since the custom character should have access to the Saiyans most powerful transformations since the Frieza race gets Frieza's golden form which is more powerful than Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan. Others say no since the Saiyans already have three transformations, and balancing two god forms and Super Saiyan 4 would be a nightmare, especially since Super Saiyan 4 is a completely different branch of Super Saiyan. These fans also feel that the god forms and Super Saiyan 4 should remain exclusive to Goku and Vegeta. The producers have stated that there are no plans to add Super Saiyan God or Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan at the moment, precisely because there's no way to balance things out for the other races. They did say, however, that plans could change if there's enough demand and they can work out a way to be fair to all the players.
    • Some players want Super Saiyan 4, Blue, or God so much that they're willing to give up Super Saiyan 2 and 3 for them. Most players agree that Future Super Saiyan is a tad nonsensical and could stand to be replaced with one of those forms.
  • Related to the Saiyan transformations, the hair not spiking up when the custom character goes Super Saiyan. This has split the fanbase between those who don't see it as a big deal and those who are seriously considering not buying the game over it.
  • Also to be noted how the Frieza Race get a Palette Swap Golden Freiza form rather than the race's dynamic transformations that they are known for. Some like the simple scheme and believe that it is much easier for the developers to make, while others are ashamed that the race who would have the most interesting transformations ended up with the most boring one.
    • Even moreso considering that Frieza makes it clear that he chose to make his new transformation gold in color - so ostensibly, any member of his race should be able to design their transformations, but the time patroller is not only left with a palette swap, but a palette swap to the the same colors Frieza used.
  • With the Majin race, some found their transformation underwhelming and lazy as it essentially turns them into a Palette Swap of Kid Buu, with even the same moves. Like with the human example above, those who defend it say that Majins don't have much to work with beyond Super Buu's absorbtions - and it's anyone's guess how the heck those would work mechanically.
  • Of course, there's also the game's races. Some fans wanted Bandai-Namco to add new races such as the Androids and the Supreme Kais from Dragon Ball Heroes or a catch-all Alien race like in Dragon Ball: Fusions, while others are fine sticking with the same five races from the first game because it means the staff can focus on the content.
  • The dulling down of Attribute Points from level ups. While putting, say, the cap of 125 points into Ki Blast Supers will have an effect, it's only approximately 15% of a boost compared to the utterly destructive specialization in the first game. If that wasn't enough, all of your stats grow equally as the game progresses separately of your actual spent Attribute Points, meaning that even if you put 0 points into Strike Supers, a max level character can still use them without any problems of specialization hindering them. Some argue that this makes the game more accessible and lets players vary up their character without resorting to Shenron respec wishes; others think this sharply reduces the variety of the custom characters (leaving sex and race to be the only real important customization choices), essentially renders the entire point of leveling and attributing points to stats to be almost meaningless.
  • Goku Black's English voice. Some like the fact that Sean did a version of his Super Saiyan 4 voice, as that's what Masako Nozawa did for her portrayal of Black in the Japanese version. However, some people find the voice too gravely and deep for when he talks to be good for the eventual Super dub and doesn't fit Black's characterization of being a soft-spoken, sadistic, jerkass. This slowly changed when his new voice was introduced with his Super form, but even then, people complain on the inconsistency.
    • Now that Schemmel's changed the voice to one with a British accent instead of the deep grovel for Black's Rose form, many people have even more complaints, as the voice makes even less sense now, as it makes no sense why he'd go from the deep grovel to a British accent with only a transformation. Worse is that Zamasu's VA doesn't give him an accent whatsoever, despite his actor being known for playing a British character. Given that Black is Zamasu, just body-switched with Goku, he shouldn't have an accent of any kind that's different from the one Zamasu has, nor the deep grovel, as neither make sense from an in-universe prospective for the character. It almost seems like they're doing the voice as if people are going to know that twist going into it, which is not how you should do a dub voice unless that was the intent of the work to be obvious.
    • Christopher Sabat has clarified that the voices Schemmel used in Xenoverse for Black were both designed before they had any real idea of who or what Goku Black truly was, and fans should not consider them as final for the anime dub.
  • Hit's English Voice. Some like the fact that Aaron Roberts used a voice that is refreshing towards the stoic badass. However, other thinks that the voice delivery is rather flat at times and doesn't give off the impression of a professional hitman.
    • Further cemented in that the role was recast to Matthew Mercer in the show, and will most likely be his voice actor in future games as well, who's been pretty well received.
  • Zamasu's English voice. While Goku Black Super Saiyan Rosé voice has become quite liked, Zamasu voice has been described as that of an apathetic old man, which doesn't fit Zamasu who is more of a young Kai. Others like it, however, and hope the voice actor gets better direction for the anime. Christopher Sabat confirmed at a panel that Zamasu's Xenoverse voice actor is a placeholder, and they have someone different in mind for the actual series dub.
    • Others are waiting to see how the voice is done in the show, since many of the actors in the dub of the game, specifically Team Four Star, have said how the voice work was done by the actors having poor direction notes and were told to match the timings of the Japanese actors rather than give their own takes on the lines, or have the cutscenes to work off of, so they're waiting to see how his actor does in the show, with better direction and the animation to work off of.
  • The Nintendo Switch version wasn't very received by fans when it's discovered that the story involving your second Xenoverse character will do missions involving the first Xenoverse. Fans find this lazy, since it just means your of this game is basically doing everything involving the events involving Demigra. Others point out it's better than nothing since the first game doesn't get ported for the Switch.

If a work has a Broken Base, does it require two Vocal Minority Factions that are against each other to qualify (see Vocal Minority for more info), or does it require that just about "everyone", including casual fans and the Silent Majority to pick a side?

I don't know much about the game, but...

Points 2 and 3 seem like they were written before the game came out. Point 3 in particular (spiky hair) is written in a way that suggests that there's only one vocal faction, and everyone else is just neutral.

Point 4 seems to be overwhelmingly negative, as if whoever wrote it was looking for a place to complain.

Points 8, 9, and 10 could be condensed into a single point about the dub in general, if there are that many controversial performances in it.

And finally, points 2, 4, 8, 9, 10 all have illegal Example Indentation which needs to be corrected if they aren't cut.

edited 27th Dec '17 3:29:14 PM by Zuxtron

Alright Cut the Persona 5 examples for being to early and made the appropriate changes to xenoverse 2

The Broken Base examples in Pocahontas:

• Broken Base:
  • "Colors Of The Wind" is either one of the best and catchiest songs to come out of the Disney Renaissance that contains a lot of Values Resonance, or a very overrated and/or Anvilicious song that is overshadowed by the other songs in the movie.
  • There's also the Cut Song "If I Never Knew You" - which is re-inserted in the 10th anniversary edition. One camp feels it slows the pace of the film down, especially as the song "Savages" comes almost directly afterwards. Others find it to be necessary for the scene - as it is a love duet in a romance movie.
  • Depending on who you ask, "Savages" is either a bold attempt to show the Gray and Grey Morality, or an excessive, unwarranted criticism of the Powhatan.

Are they actual examples?

edited 30th Dec '17 5:37:10 PM by MagBas

Now here's some stuff about Hunter x Hunter:

• Broken Base: All over the place ever since the new series began airing, and even before that. There are fans (including those who are only familiar with the original anime) who either:
  • Which anime is better, the old 1999 version, or the new 2011 version?
  • The Greed Island arc is the most divisive arc in the series. It's supporters love it for the detailed worldbuilding that goes into the game's mechanics, along with it's great high points (like the Dodgeball match and the final battle with Genthuru). It's detractors however, consider most of that worldbuilding tedious and unnecessary, and the antagonists and supporting cast boring compared to the rest of the series.
  • The narration throughout the palace invasion portion of the Chimera Ant arc gets this in both the manga, and the 2011 anime adaptation. You either enjoy it, because it brings a different approach to portraying how the battles go down, or you find it annoying, and just wish it did the battles in normal Shonen fashion.
  • Hisoka bringing himself back from the dead after his fight with Chrollo. Was it a well thought out plot twist, or was it an Ass Pull that made Hisoka seem overpowered?
  • The way female characters are portrayed. With a few exceptions, most female characters are in non-combat roles and have little prescence in story arcs. Some exist simply to die for dramatic tension. Some fans think its better than having a group of Faux Action Girls running around and other fans prefer the lack of female characters not distracting the male characters from each other. Other fans, praticularly female fans are annoyed that there are no characters they can relate to. It doesn't help that Togashi's previous work, YuYu Hakusho didn't feature many strong female characters either.

There was also a Chimera Ant entry in here, but I already deleted it due to it being one-sided (that and I'm pretty sure it was deleted before for that same reason). Not too sure about the rest though.

None of those establish "exceptionally vicious" or "sustained," or even "no middle ground" except by implication.

I tend to be instantly suspicious of any entry text that follows the formula, "Chocolate or vanilla?" or "[Divisive element]: best thing or worst thing?" with no further elaboration on the effect the ostensible dispute had on the fanbase.

Cut them.

edited 5th Jan '18 12:12:14 PM by HighCrate

Any thoughts on YMMV.Civilization?

• Broken Base:
  • When it was announced that V will have Panzer General style combat, will only allow one combat unit per tile, will be released with Steam, that there will be DLC, and that you will have to pay extra to play the Babylonian civilization. Cue Flame War. It bears noting that there is actually a "rant thread" on the Civfanatics forums that was created by the moderation staff specifically to keep the massive firestorm of complaints from cluttering up the rest of the forums and to keep said complaints at least somewhat civil. On the flipside, there were players who welcomed the "one combat unit per tile" rule, citing the massive 'unit stacks of doom' as a Scrappy Mechanic that bogged down the combat of previous games and required next to no strategy.
  • Gods and Kings continues the tradition, generally making people who liked the game like it more and people who hated the game hate it more, "Religion and espionage were already in IV", "They're totally different here", "that's a bad thing, IV had it right", etc.
  • The announcement that Brave New World will have the XCOM Squad unit. Some feel it's an unnecessary crossover in a history-based game, others are fine with the idea and point to the Giant Death Robot that has existed since vanilla V.
  • The arguments of which opening policy is better: Tradition or Liberty. Arguments for Tradition includes providing food bonuses (with unlocking the food growth-based Hanging Gardens), expand borders & build wonders quicker and faith buy Great Engineers. Arguments for Liberty include faster settlers & workers, faster building speed, and obtain 1 free Great Person of your choice.
  • The inclusion of Venice and its unique role has also broken the base in many places. Some dislike it for being another European civilization when the continent is already heavily represented, others are fine with more European civs but would rather have seen a unified Italy and/or feel that Venice has had too little impact on world history, and even some who like the idea of a Venetian civilization aren't fond of its unique ability that prevents it from founding cities, instead having to rely on a unique unit to puppet city states. Minor points of contention include its colors (shades of purple and white taken directly from a small part of a flag on The Other Wiki) and unique unit names that are seen as bland (Great Galleass and Merchant of Venice).
  • The fact that Adolf Hitler has never been a playable leader while both Josef Stalin and Mao Zedong, the other two leading competitors for leading the highest death tolls the 20th Century, rate series regulars is very controversial among the fanbase, many of whom would enjoy seeing Hitler included due to his impact on history despite his crimes. Possibly related is the fact that V is the first game in the series to feature neither Stalin nor Mao, with Russia and China instead being represented by Catherine the Great and Wu Zetian respectively, their greatest female leaders.
  • Upon the announcement of VI, many have complained about the new art direction, which has been criticized as too cartoonish for a game as serious as Civilization. Others have welcomed the new style, noting how much easier it is to distinguish objects on the map. And a third group doesn't care how it looks either way as long as the game isn't as horribly optimized as V was.
    • Not helping is the reworking of missionaries to be spellcaster-like units, further driving the tone of the game into Fantastic territory.
  • Many of the leader announcements for VI have greatly divided the fanbase for a variety of reasons, some of the most controversial ones so far include:
    • Catherine de' Medici. Aside from being ethnically Italian (rather than French), many people are upset by the selection as most of her ruling of France was done behind the scenes; Catherine never directly controlled the French throne. In addition, Catherine received the spot over many popular choices or previous leaders such as Napoleon (who was also Italian, though this is overlooked), Louis XIV, or Charles de Gaulle. Supporters of the decision are happy to see a fresh face ruling the Civ, particularly one with such an interesting involvement in history (she was essentially a real life Cersei Lannister, albeit a far more competent one). In addition, her role as The Spymaster and the presence of her Flying Squadron (in real life, ladies-in-waiting who had sex with nobles in exchange for secret information to send to Catherine to aid her in her machinations), are seen by many as a compelling and unique bonus that has yet to be seen in Civ VI.
    • Cleopatra, who is likely the most divisive ruler on this list. While she is arguably the most famous Egyptian ruler, this is due more to her compelling personality and biography and romantic affairs with Julius Caesar and Marc Antony (immortalized in both history and in Shakespeare) than her being a celebrated leader; after all, her reign ultimately ended with Egypt losing its war, and subsequently its sovereignty, against Rome. In addition, like Catherine mentioned above^note and coincidentally the other Catherine, for that matter, her Greek heritage being foreign to her own civilization is a sticking point for some fans. However, Cleo does have a fair amount of support for her inclusion, in no small part due to said fascinating personality meaning that she'll likely make for a far more interesting opponent. In addition, her Leader Agenda seems to be following history by making her suicidally aggressive (Cleopatra hates weak civs and city-states, and will slaughter each and every one of them to prove it, often through surprise attacks. This directly conflicts with agendas of rulers such as Teddy Roosevelt, Frederick Barbarossa, or Hojo Tokimune, all of whom have very strong militaries.)
    • Gandhi is obviously a series mainstay, but many players would have preferred to see a new leader to represent India, mostly because despite being the "founder" of modern India, he was never actually head of state. Some feel this to be a snub to the variety of intelligent, resourceful, capable, competent rulers to select from India's history. Then Chandragupta Maurya was announced as an alternative leader...
  • On a more general level, since the full list of launch civilizations in VI was revealed there have been accusations of Eurocentrism, with European and colonial civs typically not in the base game (eg. Brazil and Norway) making the cut to the exclusion of representatives of South-East Asia and non-colonial America beyond the Aztecs (whose status as a timed preorder exclusive is controversial for different reasons). Cleopatra's ethnicity, as mentioned above, is also often brought up in relation to this. Others believe that this will likely be rectified in future DLC and expansions and are satisfied with the current layout, though almost everyone agrees they want to see a lot of diversity of Civs when VI finishes its run. It mainly comes down to whether you're upset it isn't present from the get-go or you're willing to wait a little longer for DLC and expansions heavily centered on non-European civilizations. Three of the first four post-release DLC civilizations being Poland, Australia and Macedon has not assuaged the criticism — Macedon especially, as its culture is considered so close to that of Greece that many think it would have been better to make Alexander another Greek leader (as he was in past games) and introduce a "less redundant" civilization. Fortunately, the release of Nubia, Khmer and Indonesia has helped ease things (it also helps that all three have very unique playstyles, especially Indonesia).

Some of these were clearly written pre-release and should be cut (I just got Civ 6 off Humble Bundle, so I'm not familiar enough with the community to tell whether or not the base remained broken post-release).

"The arguments of which opening policy is better" sounds more like a game with multiple viable strategies than an actual broken base.

Then there's the bit about Venice's colors, which is clearly too minor to qualify.

So heres the one for Skullgirls. thoughts on what to cut and what to keep?

• Broken Base:
  • While the game touts an infinite prevention system (to, you know, prevent infinites), the game's combo system is free and open enough to allow skilled players to knock out other characters in a single, nonrepetitive combo. The core competitive players love this, the rest not so much.
    • As of the later patches and Encore, this is no longer the case due to the addition of the Drama mechanic.
  • The same applies to Mike Z's conservative approach to balance patches. Mike believes that you cannot make changes off a limited amount of play and prefers to let the game grow before he and the team make any balance changes. This obviously appeals to older fans and fighting game veterans who are used to seeing most early Game Breakers eventually find counters. However, newer players, especially those new to the genre in general, are not so happy with this.
  • Some of the same newer players are also somewhat put off by the influences from Marvel vs. Capcom 2, specifically on the utility of the assists.
  • Double's Hornet Bomber Assist. Due to a mistake in the game's coding, it had a lot more invincibility frames than it should have, making countering it difficult. There are people already crying out for a nerf, and people who don't think the assist needs nerfing, and telling those people to learn to deal with it. Either way, though, the move did end up being nerfed.
  • In the end, the game seems to have captured a significant fandom — not many of whom actually play fighting games at a high level. So even though it was designed by an experienced FG player for high level play, it has already lost most of its tournament exposure. The Xbox 360 version's not being updated to the latest version (for about a year; thankfully, the patch was finally released) further fractured the base, as the online matchmaking for the game is almost completely empty on that platform.
  • Not even the voting for the two DLC characters is immune. When Round 2's survivors were announced, many fans cried Fan Dumb due to hopefuls like Marie, Umbrella, and Scythana being out-voted by Minette. Beowulf winning the second contest was met with revulsion, claiming he had the least interesting design of all the males and didn't make it to the top 4 in the first contest.
  • Many fans are not happy at Big Band taking Umbrella's second DLC character spot, especially as she lost in the fan voting soon after.
    • What probably caused the most resentment was Alex Ahad's explanation that it would be impossible to add True Story Mode until Marie, Umbrella, and Black Dahlia were playable characters. You can imagine the rage that erupted when none of them won.
  • Lab Zero being forced to change the default palette of Valentine amongst other smaller examples to avoid any possible copyright issues issues with Red Cross for the Japanese PSN release has been met with hatred. Most of it stemming from the red crosses on her being changed to a shade of purplish-pink to avoid any red crosses on white backgrounds.
  • Eliza's blood mechanic - her main draw as a character - was confirmed dropped due to technical issues. As to be expected, many fans aren't looking forward to her very much anymore.
    • This has faded with time as Eliza now has a few bodyguards and a skeleton stance to keep her character unique.
  • Beowulf's story mode milks Annie for all she's worth, and consequently loses Beowulf screen time in his own story, obviously upsetting many Beowulf fans who do not care about Annie.
  • After it was discovered that a couple of animations involving pantyshots were edited, some fans were concerned this was the start of potential censorship in the future. Lab Zero later clarified that these were only edited due to artistic reasons (they felt the original animations were too forced) and no other adjustments of this type would be made. Some however are okay with that considering that one of the affected fighters (Filla) was underage.

The first entry's third-level bullet point explicitly admits that there isn't even a conflict anymore so that can be cut, same with the Eliza entry, Red Cross censorship is par for the course with a lot of games so I don't think that's important enough to be listed. Beowulf's been pretty much accepted by the fandom so that entry should be cut. The Annie being a major focus of Beowulf's story is a Vocal Minority and should be removed.

The voting contest for DLC characters can probably be condensed into one entry, especially regarding Black Dahlia/Umbrella/Marie and whether other characters deserved to be playable over them since the true story's locked behind them.

edited 8th Jan '18 5:30:39 PM by Nouct

On YMMV.Chilling Adventures Of Sabrina, the Base-Breaking Character entry for the aunts says why some people don't like them, but leaves out any explanation for why other people do like them.

I cut this from YMMV.Blaz Blue Cross Tag Battle due to the game not being out yet (not to mention the drama starting just a few hours ago):

• Broken Base: One half of fighting game enthusiasts are positively enthused about its crossover prospects. The other half is pissed that TWENTY characters (that's HALF the game's roster) are locked behind DLC.

Yeah I was in that thread and things exploded to tge point of 11 pages over one day but it's too soon to have a Broke N Base as its pre-release and I'm not sure this qualifies as Broken Base as people just seem to be pissed ratger than two sides.

Yeah, there isn't even a BB there. It's just fans being (rightfully) pissed off.

Broken Base also needs to be a sustained conflict. I'm not exactly following that particular game, but my understanding is it hasn't had enough time to be a sustained conflict.

The other half of the base is the fans who don't mind the DLC, and are simply excited to see a crossover between these franchises. If the controversy continues after the launch, it could be added back.

It probably could count as an Internet Backdraft if the reaction is potent enough.

The thing is its already under Internet Backdraft as the backlash was intense.

In that case there's no need for a Broken Base entry as it's already redundant and the response is mostly very angry people versus people who either don't know or don't care rather than (stupid) people defending it.

In YMMV.Marvel Star Wars 2015

• Broken Base: The reveal of Sana Solo, Han's wife, has broken the fanbase in two. Some are happy to see a badass woman of colour, others are enraged at Remember the New Guy? being in effect, and that it makes a lot of Han's actions in the original trilogy look a lot Harsher in Hindsight. (In particular, the "I love you." "I know." scene from Empire). Some even accuse the comic of tokenism by exploiting an interracial marriage to further develop the relationship of two white characters (Han and Leia). Though this is mitigated by the reveal that she isn't actually his wife.

Doesn't the last spoiler make the whole thing moot?

What fanbase are we talking about being split here? Because if you ask the average Star Wars fan on the street what they think about Han Solo's interracial fake marriage, they're likely to give you a blank stare. That doesn't speak well for a break that splits the entire fanbase into two camps that hate each other with no middle ground. It sounds more like "me and my buddy got into an argument once so I decided to write an entry about it as if we were the entire fanbase."

edited 18th Jan '18 8:10:47 AM by HighCrate

Kill it with fire.

I found this entry on Fire Emblem: Mystery of the Emblem under Base-Breaking Character:

Is this an example? I mean, if you have to point out that there's a third camp that says "It's not a big deal," then the character isn't really a base-breaker.

I've got a question. We all agree that Broken Base needs to be about sustained conflicts, but how long does it take for a conflict to count as "sustained?" The main page doesn't say anything.

I've seen some people using three months as a standard, though it would be nice for there to be an actual hard number.