The Grand Unified Appearance Trope Clean-up:

@1074: "Distinctive" is subjective, though. All helmet designs in fiction are distinctive in some way, if only for copyright reasons.

Scary Impractical Armor works because it's about armors adorned with various "scary" elements.

Re:Opera Gloves, I think we should try YKTTW'ing tropes like Typical Western Wedding Dress, Typical Femme Fatale Outfit, Typical High Society Dress etc. that would list all elements commonly associated with those types (including, where applicable, Opera Gloves).

@1075: "Cool", "flashy" and "stick out" are subjective.

As for "Many helmets are their one defining feature" and "all that really matters is it is theirs and being seen without it is meaningful or OOC" — that's close to the idea I described, about a trope for "when a character's iconic look is defined by their helmet, instead of their head and face".

I think, however, that this trope would warrant a new title, anyway. E.g. Unique Iconic Helmet. The current title sounds subjective (because of the word "cool"), and is essentially a Character Page ZCE Magnet.

edited 13th Oct '15 3:06:23 AM by Rjinswand

Those YKTT Ws would be along the lines of Frills of Justice right? The overlap in certain elements though would probably require the separate element tropes to remain or else it would just be an essay.

We would probably need a School Uniform one as well, discussing and listing the tropes used. Many of those ones that appear in anime and manga are actually copyrighted by their publisher so no two uniforms in A&M are the same, with some featuring oddly fancy things like Opera Gloves, its not something that actually happens in the west.

Anyway, Opera Gloves themselves are a sign of being fancy in general aristocracy, dominatrix, wedding dresses, Woman In Black, princesses, Gothic Lolita, idols, high class school uniforms and Magical Girl. All are fancy but they do not have to be connected to any real stereotypical outfit but are still meaningful to mean that. The trope is a non-exclusive subtrope of those stereotypical trope ideas.

It could use a rename to Fancy Opera Gloves with a redirect Fancy Elbow Gloves maybe and point those that are Zettai Ryouiki for arms to Zettai Ryouiki? Elbow Gloves are what they are called in Japan.

edited 13th Oct '15 3:46:17 AM by Memers

Yeah, kind of like Frills of Justice.

I don't think we need Opera Gloves (or Fancy Opera Gloves) as a separate trope, though. If they signify a dominatrix, they can be mentioned on Dominatrix or Dressed Like a Dominatrix. If they're common wedding dress element, they can be mentioned on Typical Western Wedding Dress. If they signify high social status, they can be mentioned on Typical High Class Outfit. Etc. I don't think there are any uses of Opera Gloves that convey a meaning, but aren't part of a typical outfit.

Also, being "fancy" is a bit too vague. What's "fancy" about a school uniform? A dominatrix' opera gloves signify something very different than a bride's; and mashing those under one label of "fancy" seems kind of fallacious.

edited 13th Oct '15 3:50:10 AM by Rjinswand

Many are NOT a Typical outfit though, its a stereotypical element but they could be wearing only that as a sign. They could be otherwise almost naked like all four of the CPU Candidates in Neptunia which are basically princesses. Or their outfit evolves with that element as a specific tell like Sailor Moon's Frilly Upgrade evolution into Opera Gloves which in addition to being fancier and more frilly it is also symbolic about the future.

The only examples of School Uniform that I can think of with Opera Gloves as an element are fancy expensive ones but I can only think of two, both being a Visual Novel.

The one big thing that Opera Gloves has is it is a status symbol with emphasis on being fancy .

EDIT: Opera Gloves are also an element of a Sexy Santa Dress [1]◊ and she is rich, other santa outfits that appear in the series do not feature this at all even though I can think of other series which have them but not rich girls thus not the trope.

On the other side of the fence a Princess Dress does not have to have opera gloves to even be a stereotypical dress. I would say a stereotypical dress has their gloves end about half way to the elbow and not beyond it.

Anyway maybe Cool Helmet / Cool Hat first? It's more obvious on what needs to be done with them.

edited 13th Oct '15 7:31:45 AM by Memers

I think that High-Class Gloves might be a trope (name based on High-Class Glass), since gloves of any length were such an important accessory in society for many decades. It was also one of the reasons that you could tell the upper class and working class by whether their hands were smoothed or callused (do we have that one yet?).

I think High Class Couture would probably be the trope there. Just because someone wears opera gloves doesn't mean that they are a trope in and of themselves.

1. That would be a Super-Trope (a pretty broad one, although would be a Sub-Trope of Conspicuous Consumption), which would make a good ykttw.

2. I wrote "gloves of any length", so I meant expanding this to something broader than just opera gloves.

edited 13th Oct '15 10:40:17 PM by DragonQuestZ

I think the best way to resolve this dispute would be to try YKTTW'ing High Class Opera Gloves, and see how it fares.

Meanwhile, let's discuss Cool Helmet/Cool Hat/Cool Crown.

The upper class has other lengths of gloves. The trope even with that fix is unnecessarily narrow.

edited 14th Oct '15 7:35:13 AM by DragonQuestZ

Opera Gloves, as it is now, definitely has to go. It's a list of kind of glove of this length for any reason, which is why it is Zero Context so often. I support the options for splitting them up (i.e. Dressing Like A Dominatrix, High-Class Gloves etc.).

Yep, there are a wide variety fancy gloves and such. Some even wear what I could only call fancy cloth arm guards that are not quite fingerless gloves like Terra◊ in Final Fantasy VI and Zhen Ji◊ queen of Wei and Lian Shi◊ queen of Wu in Dynasty Warriors.

They don't protect anything but are designed to be fancy and such, unlike say Zelda in Hyrule Warriors which are actual arm guards since she is a Warrior Princess.

edited 14th Oct '15 8:35:28 AM by Memers

Yes, the "mainly just for show" aspect would definitely be part of the trope (as it is with Pimped-Out Dress).

Seconded. Shoulder length gloves that serve a practical purpose such as arm guards should not count as Opera Gloves. It has to be about looking fancy or high class or something

Ok, so the YKTTW is going to be High-Class Gloves? I think I can get behind that.

And also a ykttw for High Class Fashion (since "couture" is a narrower concept) for the Super-Trope.

Yeah high class or fancy gloves works, the aforementioned cloth 'arm guards that I don't know what the heck they are called when they are just cloth and decoration' thingies would be included too.

Now about Cool Helmet, Cool Hat, and such? Need a new crowned for those?

I am for making it so that it's a Signature and Iconic Hat, Helmet, Crown, Tiara. It's theirs an no one else's when and if it is ever missing it is a big deal, possibly due to a transformation, private vs public situation, or something very symbolic.

edited 15th Oct '15 1:33:45 PM by Memers

I don't think we're quite down with Opera Gloves just yet. We have to decide what to do with the page we have right now. If we're going to ykttw a new trope, then should we cut the one we have right now? Turn into it an exampleless Useful Notes page?

Also, I agree that we need to do something about the "Cool X" tropes such as Cool Crown and Cool Helmet. Making them into more personalized things is a good idea.

There was a discussion of doing the same to the Weapon Of Choice trope and weapon class subtropes as well iirc, iconic and preferred weapons of the person so much so that any other weapon is a big deal.

I think that discussion died though.

Anyway

Reading Opera Gloves I only see a single example that wouldn't go on High-Class Gloves and that is Negi from Negima, who is a prince but that is not the reason he is wearing them.

edited 15th Oct '15 1:57:41 PM by Memers

Perhaps after High-Class Gloves is made, then Opera Gloves can be made a redirect. Then wicks that don't fit would be cut and wicks that do would be renamed.

Why on Earth should Opera Gloves be a redirect? It should be a disambig, with links to High-Class Gloves, Dominatrix, Dressed Like a Dominatrix, Typical Western Wedding Dress, etc. Similar to what we've done to Thigh High Boots.

edited 15th Oct '15 2:16:43 PM by Rjinswand

All of those are technically high class outfits, even the Dom.

Those tropes would have High Class Fancy Gloves listed as a possible but not required element to the ensemble. Exactly like what Frills of Justice has right now, not every Magical Girl has say a Giant Waist Ribbon but enough do that it's a common trait.

Gloves are not required for say a standard princess dress but are common enough to be listed. IE not all Zelda incarnations wear gloves in their princess ensemble, most do but not all.

edited 15th Oct '15 2:47:17 PM by Memers

I respectfully disagree.

A wedding dress doesn't necessarily imply high class. While the wearer might be from high society, their wedding dress signifies their bridal status, not their social standing.

As for dominatrices, what do they have to do with high class at all? Their outfits stem from fetish adult flicks, not high society.

A wedding dress is typically the highest class of dress the wearer can afford.

With a dominatrix, I think it would depend on what kind of dominatrix. If it's one wearing such gloves that aren't leather, it might fit. It's not like all of them wear the same type of outfit.

A Dominatrix outfit is made to look like the person is in a position of power, which is her status.

The point is she is higher than the other person, the submissive, unless the safety word is used which gives the true higher power to the submissive but not the look of power.

Just wearing the outfit like your Dressed Like a Dominatrix is akin to Mock Millionaire to actually being rich really.

edited 15th Oct '15 4:26:27 PM by Memers

Only if the person is impersonating a dominatrix. Otherwise it's just a costume.