Misused: Token Yuri Girls

What I'm getting from this is that Rebochan and Feather7603 don't see a difference between "yuri-style lesbians" and "lesbians generally", which I don't really know what to make of considering that most of the yuri fans I know of are quite up-front about the non-realistic-ness of the genre (and the anti-fans even more so). I don't know how to resolve this, since what seems crushingly obvious to me appears to be invisible to them; let's see if anyone else with an opinion wanders in.

And yes, many yuri fans want their yuri to be kept at the level of fantasy and don't like serious treatment of "real" lesbianism or GBLTQ issues in their yuri, particularly in the more otaku-centric fandoms. I think this may be more salient if you interact with Japanese fans, but it does also come up with some Western fans.

Calling someone a pedant is an automatic Insult Backfire. Real pedants will be flattered.

RE: Yuri and actual lesbians:

This blog post mentions some of that issue, at least in regards to male otaku in japan:

Also, I recall someone on another forum explaining that yaoi or yuri in general tend to be "I'm not gay, except for this one person". That was somebody familiar with yaoi and yuri, and explaining it for people who aren't.

But, I'm not really all that familiar with yuri. I think "yuri-style" romances tend to emphasize "purity". "Romantic" Two-Girl Friendship kind of thing. And the whole "never straight up showing that they really are lesbians, as in would have sex with each other". Not just never on-screen, but that yuri relationships don't contain physical attraction all that much. At least, that's what I can get. Pretty much all this information here is second-hand at best..

edited 18th May '12 9:32:52 AM by ThatHuman

something

Yes, they never seem to go beyond holding hands and kissing.

I don't see how that's different from most lesbian portrayals in Western media, along the lines of But Not Too Gay.

I know it's not really all that realistic, but I don't see how it's different in its unrealisticness compared to straight romance, or compared to how it is in Western media. To restrict the trope, you really need to separate it from both non-yuri Eastern media, and Western lesbian inclusions in media.

That's probably the best explanation in the thread so far. Well, more like the only actual explanation.

However it may be, I'm talking about what I'm seeing in the examples on the page, not in Yuri Genre works. Those I'm less familiar with, and they're irrelevant for this page anyway.

The Internet misuses, abuses, and overuses everything.

I guess we read different lesbian media... In the West, we're really focused on the Coming-Out Story - and it is viewed as a mature adult relationship, you see?

The Western media I am thinking of is like Dykes To Watch Out For , Saving Face, Kissing Jessica Stein , Pariah

edited 19th May '12 2:15:03 PM by animeg3282

I get the distinction now- it's the gaze. Western lesbians are in more of a Queer Media deal, more seen through ueer eyes. the Yuri is more Male Gaze - that;s why it's idealized and sugar sweet.

Those are specifically about the topic, like those in the Yuri Genre, and would thus still not be proper for this page even if western examples were allowed.

The examples on this list are not mainly about that. It's just a side note, or a part of the setting. If you compare the works you listed, pretty much any anime is going to be ways off in tone and how it handles the topic.

I think I understand what you're saying, but I'm not sure I agree with it.

Edit:

To clarify a bit what I mean: I know the Yuri Genre has its ways of handling stuff, like most genres. This page is not about that. It's about works outside that genre with lesbians in it. The way I see it, these shows handle the yuri much more like they handle any other relationship, rather than how they do it in the Yuri Genre.

edited 19th May '12 2:30:31 PM by Feather7603

The Internet misuses, abuses, and overuses everything.

It's hard for me to put it into words. It just *feels* different. Our male gaze lesbians are Girl on Girl Is Hot - very sexual, very adult. This is more...the fantasy of a sugar sweet relationship- even with Vanille and Fang who are adults.

But those that apply to each and every example on the page, and no examples that are western?

The Internet misuses, abuses, and overuses everything.

Ah! You want everything to be separate clearly. Reading the anime and manga examples, yes, they are all the sort of 'just playing' lesbians you get in Yuri and not the serious ones you get in the west.

Also, based on what I can tell, yuri media isn't actually about lesbians. The appeal is basically "they can have mushy romance, without the risk of losing their virginity" because of some fixation the Japanese have for purity in women.

edited 20th May '12 6:15:53 AM by ThatHuman

something

I want the separation to be more something like, "these works play lesbian people this and that way, and therefore they qualify for the page," and not, "these examples are Japanese, and therefore they qualify." Currently, it's the latter, which isn't a meaningful trope.

The latter of those would mean that a Western example that plays lesbians exactly according to Official Yuri Guidelines would not qualify, but a Japanese example that plays lesbians in a serious and realistic way would qualify.

The Internet misuses, abuses, and overuses everything.

It's not because they are Japanese- it's the idea that somehow lesbianism is 'pure'. In the west, that is not common. We don't consider a lesbian 'pure' they aren't virgins in our eyes. hahaa! (the 'west' I mean the US)

Then I would suggest adding that to the description.

The Internet misuses, abuses, and overuses everything.

"The latter of those would mean that a Western example that plays lesbians exactly according to Official Yuri Guidelines would not qualify, but a Japanese example that plays lesbians in a serious and realistic way would qualify."

I'm not seeing where you are getting this from, it's pretty much exactly the opposite of what the trope is designed to do. If you want to edit the description to explicitly state that Japanese works that have non-yuri-influenced lesbians don't count and Animesque Western works that have yuri-influenced lesbians do count, go ahead. (Although there's very few of the former.)

Calling someone a pedant is an automatic Insult Backfire. Real pedants will be flattered.

I think someone who's less confused about the topic than I am is better suited to rewrite the description. In particular, neither this page nor Yuri Genre has a lot of what has been discussed here, in the light of what differs Eastern from Western. Neither page describes what yuri-style actually is, but both still use the label.

The Internet misuses, abuses, and overuses everything.

I've been busy for the last few days, but I agree with Feather in that both this trope and the yuri page isn't really explaining what a "yuri" lesbian is and what a "lesbian" lesbian is.

I also still object to the "Token" label in the trope name, and would suggest a rename.

&

Well, let's start with this. Yuri, in Japan, is a genre (or possibly a collection of overlapping genres), marked through the use of associated tropes and stereotypes. The term "yuri" is sufficiently strongly associated with those tropes and stereotypes that some Japanese lesbian manga fans use a different term, like "bian" (short for lesbian), "Onna x Onna" ("women x women"), or "Onna-doushi" ("women together") for works which are actually by/for lesbian women. (See here for a short glossary and here and here for a bit more context.)

There's a couple of different types of yuri, depending in part on the target audience. Yuri for men tends to emphasize sweetness, femininity, girlishness, innocence, purity, and moe generally, and usually has a very romanticized view of what it is like to be a teen girl (as do men's moe-driven works in general). Alternately, it can be a straight-up Girl on Girl Is Hot scenario, with lustful women making out with each other for the viewer's delectation, but that tends to be mixed with heterosexual content in a fanservice-driven show and usually doesn't get the Yuri label. Men's yuri (and to a lesser extent shoujo yuri) tend to treat the relationship as something that is connected to girlishness and adolescence, sometimes with the implicit or explicit assumption that it won't last and they'll eventually end up with a guy. It typically fetishizes femininity and youthfulness and rarely focuses on long-standing relationships or on adult characters, much less LGBTQ culture or social issues.

Yuri for girls (i.e., Shoujo yuri) may also be hyperfeminine and "pure" but can alternately feature some degree of genderbending or crossdressing, with the bifauxnen / "girl prince" type as the "top" (tachi) and a more feminine girl as the "neko" (bottom). In either case, it's usually focused on fantasies of female solidarity, idealized femininity and gender transgression, not with lesbian identity, lesbian culture or what it's like to actually be lesbian in Japan. Here's a nice (free) academic essay on shoujo yuri which discusses the history and looks at some modern stories (warning: one of the images near the end is NSFW); the author is perhaps a bit over-inclusive in interpreting female yuri fans as expressing lesbian desire/identity, but I think she's quite correct in describing shoujo yuri as a challenge to Japanese gender restrictions and a homosocial space for women and girls to discuss sex / gender / gender roles.

Yuri for adult women (i.e., josei yuri) is usually less stereotyped and relatively realistic, with less idealization, more attention given to the realities of adult relationships, and a more real-world view of the characters and their lives (as is characteristic of jose generally). Yuri for lesbians is the most likely to be realistic, and to deal with LGBTQ culture and social issues, but is a very small portion of all yuri produced. As mentioned above, some readers use a separate term for "yuri by/for lesbians" to distinguish it from the usual yuri fantasies.

The Yuri Genre article already has a fairly long description, so if anyone wants to help pick out the bits that would be useful to include there, that would be great.

"I also still object to the "Token" label in the trope name, and would suggest a rename."

Suggestions?

Calling someone a pedant is an automatic Insult Backfire. Real pedants will be flattered.

How about Yuri Style Lesbians?

Anyway, great job on the writing. It's pretty much exactly what I wanted. I tried to merge it with the one on Yuri Genre, and shorten it down a little. If need be, we can cut down the terminology, or put it on a Useful Notes page. It's less relevant to understand the genre than the actual description of it.

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A genre in Japanese media that focuses on female/female romance and can focus either on the sex or on the emotional aspects of the relationship. In Japanese, "yuri" literally means "lily" but has also come to refer to works found within the genre.

Yuri, in Japan, is a genre (or possibly a collection of overlapping genres), marked through the use of associated tropes and stereotypes. The term "yuri" is sufficiently strongly associated with those tropes and stereotypes that some Japanese lesbian manga fans use a different term, like "bian" (short for lesbian), "Onna x Onna" ("women x women"), or "Onna-doushi" ("women together") for works which are actually by/for lesbian women. Occasionally, some fans use shoujo-ai ("girl's love") and "yuri" to indicate different degrees of explicitness. However, in Japan shoujo-ai refers to liking little girls. In Japan, yuri is also known as "Girls Love" (in English), or GL, a term created for paralellism to the male version, "Boys' Love" or BL. (See here for a short glossary and here and here for a bit more context.)

There's a couple of different types of yuri, depending in part on the target audience. Yuri for men tends to emphasize sweetness, femininity, girlishness, innocence, purity, and moe generally, and usually has a very romanticized view of what it is like to be a teen girl. Straight-up Girl on Girl Is Hot scenarios, with lustful women making out with each other for the viewer's delectation, tend to be mixed with heterosexual content in fanservice-driven shows, but are usually not considered yuri. Men's yuri typically fetishizes femininity and youthfulness and rarely focuses on long-standing relationships or on adult characters, much less LGBTQ culture or social issues. The assumption that it won't last and they'll eventually end up with a guy is fairly common.

Yuri for girls*

may also be hyperfeminine and "pure" but can alternately feature some degree of genderbending or crossdressing, with the bifauxnen in a more traditionally male role. In either case, it's usually focused on fantasies of female solidarity, idealized femininity and gender transgression, not with lesbian identity, culture or actual life in Japan. Here's an academic essay that discusses the history and looks at some modern stories (warning: one of the images near the end is NSFW).

Yuri for adult women*

is usually less stereotyped and relatively realistic, like most fiction aimed at adults. Yuri for lesbians is the most likely to be realistic, and to deal with LGBTQ culture and social issues, but is a very small portion of all yuri produced. As mentioned above, some readers use a separate term for "yuri by/for lesbians" to distinguish it from the usual yuri fantasies.

In the past, a disproportionate amount of yuri stories have ended tragically or inconclusively, but this is changing as more and more couples are allowed to have happy, committed and Canon endings.

In yuri, you'll most likely find relationships that play on Tomboy and Girly Girl or Sempai/Kouhai dynamics. The first usually emulates a heterosexual couple, while the latter emphasises the difference in maturity between the girl. Teacher/Student Romance is also found, but less commonly than the first two types.

This is the genre; couple-specific examples should only be listed below if they're the focus of the series. For yuri-style couples (and unrequited crushes) in other genres, see Token Yuri Girls. Also see: Slash Fic, Everyone Is Gay, Schoolgirl Lesbians, and "Romantic" Two-Girl Friendship.

The Spear Counterpart of this genre is the Boys' Love Genre (targeted towards women) and the Bara Genre (targeted towards gay men).

See also our guide on how to Write a Yuri Manga.

Has nothing to do with Yuri Lowenthal. Poor guy.

edited 25th May '12 9:37:13 PM by Feather7603

The Internet misuses, abuses, and overuses everything.

To change a bit on how to go about it with the name, how about calling the trope Yuri Elements? It's a term that is actually used by fans to describe series that injects adds some yuri to attract the Yuri Fans since animated yuri is rare (or heck, simply for the author to take a stab at writing lesbian characters), but doesn't want to go all the way for various reasons ( doesn't want to alienate conservative fans, wants to try it but doesn't feel confident on ability to write lesbians, fear about Japanese censorship laws, simply isn't planning to write a yuri story).

This will also cover instances where the possible lesbians are main characters but doesn't count as yuri since the story doesn't completely revolve around their relationship, as well as cases where the lesbians have a point beyond just Yuri Fan bait.

edited 26th May '12 3:06:08 AM by Servbot

That's...actually not a bad idea at all. We wouldn't even need to rework the trope page.

Good idea.

Would my rewrite fit as a description for Yuri Genre?

edited 27th May '12 3:55:34 PM by Feather7603

The Internet misuses, abuses, and overuses everything.

Since this is supposed to be the Distaff Counterpart to Yaoi Guys, why don't we just remove the "Token" part to just make it "Yuri Girls"? It's much simpler that way (unless of course there's an argument to change the name of the spear counterpart as well).

Time to leave them all behind

The "Token" bit just makes it seem as if the page creator wanted to be snarky about his/her dislike of yuri. Debates concerning what constitutes "yuri style" seem sort of pointless, because the genre encompasses everything from sugary-sweet chaste relationships to actual, mature stories of lesbian relationships with (gasp!) actual sex, God forbid, and not just in a Girl on Girl Is Hot context. Does it follow patterns? Of course it does, everything in fiction follows patterns. While I'm all for having a female version of Yaoi Guys that isn't tied to Schoolgirl Lesbians, Lipstick Lesbian or Yuri Genre, this page really does nothing but point out genre conventions that have already been established in the aforementioned pages. It's either here to complain about a genre some tropers don't like, or it's redundant.