Split old description, rewrite to better fit current name: Action Hero

Problems:

• As it stands, Action Hero's description is ridiculously narrow for its name, with its example list limited to a specific collection of Hollywood action-genre actors.

• Without reading the trope description beforehand, the name alone would make one assume that it's about "an action-oriented hero"; that is, a hero who is frequently involved in action-y situations (fights, problems requiring application of raw physical power to "solve", etc.) and is good at solving said situations with physical means - be it direct combat or using physical effort to "solve" them (i.e. a mildly superstrong but nonviolent Gentle Giant uses his brawn to knock down a mass of metal girders, which none of the other characters has the necessary strength to do, to prevent Mooks from pursuing him and his friends). This the exact same sense that I've seen used in various other articles (more or less every article that is not involved with a Hollywood action-genre film/actor), particularly Guile Hero, which states that it, Action Hero and Science Hero form a trinity...

• You would also see the same thing done in the example list of Guile Hero.
• And the confusion also extends to the forum; we have a someone who applies the trope to Superman, either taking the trope's definition from a literal intepretation of its name (as described above) without reading the description, or deliberately using Action Hero in the sense that its name evokes rather than what the description entails.

• It's got 194 wicks, with only 342 inbounds. That's quite unhealthy for what is supposed to be one of a 2-years-and-counting-old trope.

Thus, I propose splitting it into two tropes: Hollywood Action Hero, where the current article description would go; and the "normal" Action Hero, describing the "action-oriented hero" stock character type.

edited 15th Jul '11 6:12:13 PM by MarqFJA

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I vote yes. This is something we should have done long before now.

This is probably just a difference of opinion, but those usage numbers seem pretty good, there's perfectly healthy tropes out there of similar age with smaller usage numbers. Where should they be at?

Guile Hero usage:

Science Hero usage:

I'm fairly certain Action Hero is the most common of the trio, and Science Hero the least. The fact that their numbers are around the same place (while Guile Hero has about triple the usage) suggests that Action Hero is indeed somewhat anemic.

Interesting, and looking at the ykttw they all are from mid 2009 so that variable is fairly controlled. We're doing SCIENCE!

I got curious and looked at similar related trope trios. The Kirk, The Spock and The McCoy. The Kirk and The McCoy were made in 2008, The Spock has no ykttw in discussion. Numbers are: Spock: 706 wicks and 886 inbound. The Kirk 337 wicks and 264 inbound. The McCoy 406 wicks and 379 inbound. There I'd wager that The Spock has time and popularity (tropewise) of the three, so that tracks.

Looking at Action Survivor would seem to confirm the hypothesis, it's got 535 wicks and 452 inbounds. Though admittedly it is older since it was launched late 2008.

And just so this aside doesn't steer the topic off course, I think a Hollywood Action Hero subtrope would certainly be a good move.

Bump.

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.

To further the confusion, I've just found this, which seems like the "Hollywood Action Star" trope that Action Hero currently is, but has some strange requirements (for instance, the focus on appearance) that make it not quite work.

Bump. Do I have to holler to the mods or something to get some actual feedback?

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Frankly, I'm sick and tired of being one of two-three people trying to fix a major trope. That said, this really does need fixing.

As I said before, we need to look at this Action Genre Hero Guy trope and see how it fits in with the Hollywood Action Hero trope. They're similar, but Action Genre Hero Guy has a very specific set of requirements, some of which (like the appearance thing) don't really seem necessary.

...I feel bad for not noticing this.

Anyways, maybe we could make Action Hero the actual Spear Counterpart to Action Girl (as in, guy who kicks ass). I suggest that we talk about common traits of Action Hero characters on the main page, and then have examples from a lot of media (not just Hollywood). However, we should point out the Double Standard of that a lot of people expect male characters to ALL be Action Heroes (or villains). If we point this out, maybe we could get more people to add wicks since they would know that in Real Life just being male does not make you an ass-kicker.

edited 20th Aug '11 9:28:12 PM by darkclaw

I totally hate my avatar. Just saying.

We could re-YKTTW it. Not cut, first, just run it back through to see if we can pick up more examples.

Fight smart, not fair.

I think we should just make Action Hero fall in line a little better with Guile Hero and Science Hero so they are a true triumvirate.

• Guile Hero: uses manipulation of people to solve his problems.
• Science Hero: uses technology and knowledge to solve his problems.
• Action Hero: uses good old ass-kicking to solve his problems.

Basically make them all solely about the methods the characters use to advance the plot to achieve their goal. Make it gender-neutral, too (a girl would be an Action Heroine).

And on the subject of Action Girl, an Action Girl is more a female Badass, I think. A girl can hold her own in a fight without those fists being her go-to problem-solver. So any Action Heroine would be an Action Girl, but not every Action Girl would be an Action Heroine.

And honestly I think we should just cut Hollywood Action Hero Guy altogether. If it really is a trope, then someone will re-trope it.

edited 20th Aug '11 11:39:08 PM by NoirGrimoir

SPATULA, Supporters of Page Altering To Urgently Lead to Amelioration (supports not going through TRS for tweaks and minor improvements.)

From Laconic of Action Girl:

Laconic: Action Girl She kicks ass.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure the Action Girl is most likely using her fists, feet or superpowers..or something. Not talking out the problems.

So, I guess my question is...if Action Hero characters fight without fists or feet, are they still Action Hero characters?

edited 20th Aug '11 11:47:54 PM by darkclaw

I totally hate my avatar. Just saying.

A character can be a side character who is an Action Girl, who kicks-ass, but isn't a main hero and therefore not tied in with the goal of the story, and therefore not an Action Hero.

Like say, if they fight with a Mecha or something instead of their own hands?

Not sure. That's a good question. Makes sense to me that they would be, so long as destruction and violence is involved. Though at this point that hasn't been what the trope is used for. What do you think?

edited 21st Aug '11 2:46:27 AM by NoirGrimoir

SPATULA, Supporters of Page Altering To Urgently Lead to Amelioration (supports not going through TRS for tweaks and minor improvements.)

Well lets see Female Mecha pilots.... I wouldnt call most of them that definition of Action Hero *

however yeah they would still be Action Girl s though.

edited 21st Aug '11 12:01:35 AM by Raso

Sparkling and glittering! Jan-Ken-Pon!

I think we can undoubtedly say that a general directing troops that are blowing stuff up, isn't an Action Hero. You have to be significantly involved int he action to count. A Mecha pilot seems murky, though, since when it comes down to it, they wouldn't necessarily be able to kick ass under their own power, but they are inside a mecha that is kicking ass and they are not separated from it, they are clearly in danger. And sometimes shows go out of there way to play up the fact that while they have mad-mecha skills outside their mecha they are weaklings.

But then most mecha pilots are in the military, and they aren't necessarily only doing action things, or even moving towards a goal. They are just following orders...

Okay here's what I'm thinking.

Simon from Gurren Lagann is an Action Hero because he clearly has a goal, and that goal is clearly accomplished by kicking-ass until he finds the top guy, and then kicking his ass too, and this ass-kicking just happens to be accomplished using a Mecha (and there's that fight scene in Lagann-Len, which might qualify him anyway, but whatever).

Renton from Eureka Seven is not an Action Hero, despite kicking ass with a mecha, because his goal isn't reached by his Mecha Piloting. His goal is basically to be a great lifter, have Holland like him and Get The Girl, and Mecha Piloting his something he just ends up doing out of necessity. Basically the climax of the story isn't that he beat someone up, it's that he got the girl. He is however an Action Survivor (as a subtrope of Badass).

edited 21st Aug '11 2:45:13 AM by NoirGrimoir

SPATULA, Supporters of Page Altering To Urgently Lead to Amelioration (supports not going through TRS for tweaks and minor improvements.)

I definitely like Noir Grimoire's take on this, with the triumvirate of types. Is it really only three, though, or are their more types that should be included in the set?

Is this a subtrope of The Hero? (Or are we, confusingly, using "hero" in the sense of The Protagonist here?)

Speaking words of fandom: let it squee, let it squee.

There could be more types in theory, but those are three we've always had - if there's another member of this set of tropes, it hasn't been added yet.

And "hero" here definitely means The Protagonist - actually, I wouldn't even go that far, as you can have these characters in an ensemble cast with no clear protagonist, or even as side characters. "Hero" here really just seems to mean "good guy".

Yeah, "hero" and "protagonist" are not synonymous, else we wouldn't have Hero Antagonist, Villain Protagonist, or Designated Hero.

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.

Yeah, there's definitely more types, we just don't really have them troped. Another type would probably be Magic Hero, probably. I guess if we are looking at motivations, then hero really just means 'character who does stuff' I mean if they are just a really minor character they could never be one of these tropes, because they probably don't have goals or how they operate sufficiently revealed.

But you know, I wouldn't be opposed to making these alignment neutral. So we could have Action Villain and Guile Villain and Science Villain.

edited 21st Aug '11 3:32:32 PM by NoirGrimoir

SPATULA, Supporters of Page Altering To Urgently Lead to Amelioration (supports not going through TRS for tweaks and minor improvements.)

I'm not sure if making them alignment neutral is really a good idea.

For Science Hero and Guile Hero in particular, the "hero" part adds some important connotations - the Science Hero defies the Science Is Bad mentality that infects so much of fiction, while the Guile Hero does the same for the prevailing "sneaky villains, straightforward heroes" attitude. The Action Hero is the only one that doesn't have its connotations change if it's an Action Villain instead, and I may be missing something in that case as well.

Good point.

SPATULA, Supporters of Page Altering To Urgently Lead to Amelioration (supports not going through TRS for tweaks and minor improvements.)

You are. Action Villians tend to be more violent and have less morals than the corresponding hero types. Where as an Action Hero is usually played entirely for Rule of Cool, the Action Villian's acts are usually played for Gorn and to play up how evil he is.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick

Re Action Hero's villain counterpart: I think you're looking for The Brute.

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We weren't looking for a counterpart - I was just trying to determine if there were any connotations to Action Hero that prevented it from being made alignment-neutral like there are with Science Hero and Guile Hero.

I think we've debated this quite a bit. Does anyone have a summary of what we've come up with so far?