Race- Privilege, Relations, Racism, etc.

Given that for the most part Mexicans Love Speedy Gonzales, and that a lot of national world humour comes from mocking stereotypes (topped by Offending the Creator's Own, of course),it's really beginning to look like the inverse - that Americans (already ridiculed for being overly litigous) have become too overzealous about other people's issues, regardless of what said people really think. And that, ironically, they still short-sightedly believe We All Live in America and that what offends them must be offensive to everybody.

Street Fighter for instance was developed in Japan, and the creators thought that their own country would be best represented by a big fat Sumo wrestler and a stoic karateka permanently wearing his gi - pretty obvious they weren't aiming for poignant realism... y'know, just in case the Brazilian green hulkling rage-monster didn't tip you off already.

edited 28th Mar '14 1:49:16 AM by indiana404

Yeah, at some point you have to you ask yourself "Is this actually offensive or am I being offended for sake of being offended?"

Also, Gabrael, you might want to note that lots of symbolism in both Hellsing and Evangelion is actually Faux Symbolism. Just take a look at how Catholism is presented in Hellsing.

And Evangelion... well, let me just quote the entry of Faux Symbolism page:

• The religious motifs within Neon Genesis Evangelion are often dismissed as this because of a popular statement from assistant director Kazuya Tsurumaki. However, creator Hideaki Anno has never specifically affirmed or denied that claim. Let's leave it at that.
  • Hideaki Anno's own statement that he chose the name "Evangelion" because "it sounds complicated" doesn't really help, however.

In fact, here is his quote:

Source

So yeah. Evangelion is being "respectful", it's quite frankly using Christianity just because it looks cool. Death of the Author, much?

And like Indiana said, Street Fighter mocks all stereotypes. Even their own.

edited 28th Mar '14 1:26:44 AM by Mandemo

Catholism and Christianity are already established in Japan as cultural symbols in their own right. Hence why I used the words repurposed. A fair percentage of those in Japan who have a "Catholic Wedding" do so because it looks and sounds cool. Does that make it any less Catholic? No. Just a new cultural interpretation.

So it's not faux symbolism. It's cultural appropriation. They took something Catholic and made it their own and it's still holding to some of the original values of the symbols. Makes it fun and still in line.

Artists have some say over their work, but not all the time. If your audience takes something a different way, then the artist is responsible for that. No, they don't get a free pass.

And neither does Street Fighter. You can swear it is playing on stereotypes all you want to but a positive stereotype is just as dangerous as a negative one. I'm sure that Spainish people probably love Vega. And the Chinese have Gen, the only character who can switch forms.

But explain things like Juri being the one Korean female, the only Tawkwando athlete, being described by Capcom as sex-crazed as a good stereotype that has no negative effects on anyone and shouldnt be considered offensive. Consider the country that created her also to this day has issues in acknowledging full citizenship of it's ethnically Korean citizens.

Or what the hell is going on with Dhalsim? He might as well have just walked out of the temple of doom and called it a day. Even his name is twisted. They made him a starved aesthetic with the skulls of Kali but the saffron of a Buddhist priest. Guy takes an elephant home which is closer to Sri Lanka than India. Nevermind that the one character he can double team with is Blanka, another weird cartoon of a character.

Blanka originally started as an African man raised by tigers. Glad they realized that was a problem! So instead they go with a feral monster who used to be a human, but was just zapped by electric eels after a plane crash who only learned of civiliazation by eating a melon from a poacher's truck. The guy ends up in a zoo at one point for crying out loud. And to go beyond the games, his appearance in the animations is either as a caged monster in a gladiator style fight or a brutalized and subjegated pet used as a scout.

Nope. No reason to consider that using cultural appropriation like that is offensive and problematic.

edited 28th Mar '14 3:46:36 AM by Gabrael

Yeah, I have to say... what exactly are the giant cross-shaped explosions symbolic of, again?

Creepiness and coolness, naturally. Which is basically Evangelion in a nutshell anyway. Given that in most anime Christianity is Catholic and Nuns Are Mikos, I'd say the Japanese are just as clueless as westerners when it comes to other cultures. And there's really nothing wrong with that. We're talking TV shows and video games - the stereotypes there are no more "dangerous" than they're able to jump from the screen and Hadouken the players themselves. I realize that American lawyers get half their income from enabling Moral Guardians to sue studios over "offensive" material, but really, for people across the rest of the world, it merely provides another stereotype to mock.

Okay, so, explain to me what "good" does Catholics being insane people with murder fetish, just looking for an excuse to kill infidels present? What "good" does presenting Protestant willing to employ vampires present? What good does naming humanity threatening creatures "Angels" present? What about massive explosion on par with nukes shaped like Cross?

Vatican is basically treated as evil cabal in Hellsing. How is that not offensive? Not to mention their massive "crusade" that kills people just as badly the Nazi attack?

Like I said: You should recognize when something is offensive and when you are being offended for sake of being offended.

You have chosen to be offended by Street Fighters, while ignoring possible offensive stuff in two other works.

You also say that the author has no say in how their work is interpreted. As such, if I get offended by Hellsing and Evangelion, because I believe they connect Christianity to bad things, shall we then agree that both Hellsing and Evangelion are bad?

Or would you say "You are reading too much there, they are not trying to offend you"

edited 28th Mar '14 3:48:58 AM by Mandemo

It is from media that pop culture is built and then influences in a cycle.

Media also helps solidify existing values.

Media also is not created in a vacuum. If it were Birdie wouldn't have had a race swap as one example. Media reflects the values and the cultural priorities of those creating it and those consuming it.

So how a culture respects or doesn't other culture's important pieces then it is telling.

EDIT: I said cultural appropriation of symbols, not depictions of actual living entities. Names, titles, imagery, that is a tangible artifact ththat used to mean something and has been taken by another culture to mean something else, likehow the Cross originally meant the power of Christ over death in Christianity or forgiveness and has been used as a symbol of personal power or awe like in Hellsing and Evangelion.

Another example: Foot washing in Death note.

edited 28th Mar '14 4:01:16 AM by Gabrael

Actually, 'evil, sex-crazed Korean woman' is a Japanese stereotype with a pretty... scary history even if you discount the whole immigrant issue. It's the least sympathetic, most MRA-ish take on the whole 'comfort woman' scandal of the early twentieth century, for a start (loose Korean women corrupting ARE BOYS and then crying rape to get sympathy).

Catholicism is the biggest religion in the world really . Only an idiot would think hell sing was realistic . I don't think it's worth worrying about. It should also be noted that people in Japan don't really feel obligated to know about the world outside japan, probably going back to Japanese isolationism. I think gaijin goomba did an editorial on it

that in the other hand is completely different and I'm not ok with it

edited 28th Mar '14 4:17:53 AM by Xopher001

You know... I would agree with that argument, if I felt that most of the knowledge that people in any country think they have about the rest of the world was not based on Hollywood Movies and local Stereotypes.

What I'm trying to say is that most if the time . MOST of the time - these stereotypes don't really hurt Catholics, iirc. Maybe they used to, and they certainly do in certain parts if the world still, but I don't think most Catholics are getting persecuted for what they're depicted like in Hellsing

edited 28th Mar '14 4:52:50 AM by Xopher001

I'm going to throw my hat in and say that Evangelion is just as terrible in its cultural depictions as Street Fighter.

That said, Mandemo is wrong, but his argument is right. Both stories are offensive. The fact that Street Fighter "mocks" everyone doesn't make it not offensive. The fact that people think Evangelion is "deep" doesn't make it not offensive.

I've mentioned that fallacy before. The whole "it's cool because everyone's being insulted" doesn't work when the insults are actual problems that hurt people in Real Life.

edited 28th Mar '14 6:29:23 AM by KingZeal

I don't think cultural appropriation is a bad thing. Some things other cultures do better and is worth emulaing. But those are possible customs and practices.

Symbols are more fluid. The Cross is not inherant to Christianity. It is a universal symbol seen in some form in almost every culture that means different things or nothing at all.

What makes Evangelion different is the combined use of symbols. Naming their creatures Angels and after apocryphal lore isn't a bad thing any more than Pacific Rim's Kaiju and Jaegar borrowing.

What is different with Street Fighter is they take these symbols and combine them in a conflicting and obnoxious way. To me making a Temple of Doom Indian warrior is just the same kind of bad as the white girls who pose half nude, smoking cigarettes, and in a traditional Indian headdress.

You're not taking things and improving, changing, reinventing them, or respecting the roots. You're mocking the original culture.

I just noticed that Indiana said this:

You mean like how anime, in general, is helping cause the lack of male Japanese interest in sex because the girls aren't "anime" enough? Or how Jaws inspired people to hunt sharks to extinction, how Breaking Bad inspired dozens of new meth enterprises, The Godfather helped romanticize the mafia (can't find my original source for that one), or how Birth Of A Nation inspired recruitment into the KKK and brutal race riots that led to thousands of African-Americans being killed?

And let's not forget that we have TWO PAGES showcasing random tropes and stereotypes that people think are real because they saw it in fiction.

edited 28th Mar '14 6:47:27 AM by KingZeal

I'd say cultural stereotypes are no more dangerous or offensive to actual cultures than cheezy one-liner-filled action flicks are offensive to real life gun victims or promote random killing sprees. For that matter, Black Comedy usually revolves precisely around the mocking of sensitive subjects and not always Acceptable Targets (which trope in turn points out the hypocrisy of such selective offensiveness). What's left are merely various, often conflicting sets of Pet Peeve Tropes that some people dislike... and I don't think media or cosplay should be criticized for not conforming to those. All things considered, such Complaining About Shows You Don't Watch isn't exactly a poignant social issue; no more than the cliche of violent video games leading to actual violence.

edited 28th Mar '14 6:36:40 AM by indiana404

You don't get to speak for other people on what is or isn't offensive.

Uh... who spat in your cornflakes this morning, mate? <slightly worried — sends hugs>

Anyhoo: cultures will always nick stuff off each other and even exchange offensive stereotypes doing it. You can't get the good parts of cross-pollination without suffering some of the dumbass moves, too. <shrugs>

That's just the way people are. Even trying to legislate to cut the worst off at the pass will only ever shift the goals (doesn't make it worthless trying, though: but, a realistic acceptance of the way people work helps).

edited 28th Mar '14 6:46:59 AM by Euodiachloris

Now, I'm usually fine with censorship, as long as it's called as it is - censorship. As in, "stuff I don't like seeing so I demand nobody should see as well". And whether that's gratuitous violence, ethnic stereotypes, or gratuitous violence against ethnic stereotypes, any complaints about offensiveness over a piece of media that nobody forces you to watch still boil down to a demand for censorship. As I've lived in such times, I'd suggest that you Be Careful What You Wish For.

edited 28th Mar '14 6:49:18 AM by indiana404

That wasn't me trying to be mean. It's just a rule of thumb. (I hate that expression, but whatever.)

No one can declare who is or isn't offended by something except the persons who may or may not be offended.

Doing otherwise is like a parent who beats their children speaking for the child when they tell everyone the child is fine.

"Censorship" is not what is being talked about here. Whenever anyone brings up problematic programming, that's the first thing apologists do: call it "censorship".

We're talking about increasing awareness and sensitivity not just in the media, but in the people who make and the people who watch it. This is about discussing problems and coming up with mutually-beneficial solutions. Not a hard list of "do this or else".

edited 28th Mar '14 6:52:35 AM by KingZeal

And again, back in the good old days, this was called propaganda, which, while sometimes noble in intent, wasn't particularly effective.

What you basically want is for people to change their views so as to match your own, on their own time; and for the media to promote this change for you, on their own dime; without you offering any sort of incentive for them, so as to truly be considered mutually beneficial.

And I'm in the market for a new bridge.

Well I was raised Catholic and I can say with certainty that I'm certainly not deeply offended by the content of Hellsing Ultima or Evangelion

edited 28th Mar '14 7:48:04 AM by Xopher001

That is pretty obvious false equivalence.

I know. At least a bridge is good for something.

Nope. I also find it hilarious that you say this while posting on a forum. By the logic that you're going with here, what is your purpose for debating with people like me?

As I said, this is about awareness, discussion, and mutual solution.

You know...like a society is supposed to do.

I think we have to distinguish between the portrayal of a culture and the appropriation of cultural elements for your own. This must be allowed. You cannot "own" a culture and thus have no say in what can and what can't be used by other people.

The portrayal of a culture (or subculture) is a seperate thing however. And claiming that stereotypes are harmless is just plain wrong. At the very least they contribute to othering people. And if you have the right to use them, others have the right to complain about them.

The diference between the two is that one disregards cultural barriers while the other upholds them.