Discussion YMMV / MetalGearSolidVThePhantomPain

Let's just ignore the argument itself for the moment, because getting in to that is a bad idea seeing that this is still a pretty hot-button issue that a lot of people are invested in, and delving in to it further will just bog things down in an argument that's ultimately irrelevant over the current issue. Keeping that in mind, the example itself is pretty unnecessary, is clearly natter, on top of being an obvious lightning rod for edit wars due to how opinionated the issue is. So ultimately I agree that it should be pulled.

Short story of Quiet and what she wears...sorry, what she doesn't wear: if this is SFW where you W I want to W there too. And this is far from the biggest issue or my main gripe with the game, I frankly hate it that she is tortured and nearly raped to the point that I can live without the game but for some reason it's treated as more important than the cut content, the quality of the story and gameplay, the twists and turns the game takes, and the issue over Kojima and Konami.

I mistook the "nonsense" reason as brushing aside the comparison with vamp itself. If it's alright I'd like to re-add the comparison without all of the talk of the controversy weighing it down, under Counterpart Comparison or a similar trope.

What if we edit it a little and add it under Hilarious in Hindsight?

• On a somewhat amusing note, a few longtime MGS fans have noted that Quiet's outfit is very similar to Vamp◊ from Metal Gear Solid 2, replacing the pants with nylons and knives with a sniper rifle. But the gloves, tactical harnesses, and even the designs on the boots are very similar.

Thoughts?

Yeah that's what I was thinking. Probably doesn't fit exactly in to Hilariousin Hindsight though... There's a trope for it somewhere. There's a trope for EVERYTHING.

• Now, obviously it's Natter and example indentation, but it's also picking a side,

There are plenty of examples on the YMMV page picking sides. But it seems like the ones attacking Quiet's design get to remain up, while the ones defending Quiet's design get removed.

I'm not sure if there's a Play It For The Fanservice trope or some such so how to portray how sexy Quiet is (and she is) we could use some help with, Everyone Remembers the Stripper somehow has a negative connotation. Reading through I don't see much of taking sides for or against. Could you point out where she condemned that's kept and where she's defended that's removed please?

There are a lot of negative tropes on Quiet's design, but I haven't really seen much natter in them. Just statements of the trope, as it should be, mind you. Most of the positive tropes dealing with Quiet are about her personality and her contribution to the plot.

However, I still think your comparison with Vamp can be added if the little bit at the end is chopped off.

Looks like some of the more extreme examples of people who hated Quiet's design have been removed since I last checked about a week ago (in fact, looks like Mighty Moose edited one just a few hours ago to make it more neutral). There for a while it seemed as though significant chunk of entries on the YMMV tab were complaints about how stupid Quiet's design was. It appears the most vocal anti-Quiet's design entries seem to be Fetish Retardant, Supposedly Rebellious Series, and WTH, Costuming Department?. And those entries are tame compared to some of the ones that have since been deleted.

On a seperate note, there actually kinda is a "Play It For The Fanservice" trope. It's Best Known for the Fanservice; it's used in regards to works that have particularly memorable examples of fanservice (for example: the three-boobed hooker from Total Recall).

Yes I did think of that trope and I thought while it might be a fair call to describe the game and Quiet as such I didn't think it was a celebration of how gorgeous and how she was portrayed you may have been looking for. Overshadowed by Controversy was another accurate trope not least because of the fanservice but the content both cut and in game as well as casting, Kojima and Konami but that definitely would be negative rather than support the way Quiet is portrayed in the game.

I'd be down for throwing that Hilarious in Hindsight writeup in... the similarities between the two is worth noting, but claiming that they're practically the same outfit is ridiculously inaccurate considering the "pants vs. nylons" is... most of their outfit.

Note that I don't really have a horse in the race, I haven't played the game yet. But that particular comparison bothered me because it was just such a false equivalence.

I'd still rather see it in Counterpart Comparison. Their outfits are similar enough that I believe it would warrant that. Not to mention they both have MacGuffin powered "supernatural" abilities. I also don't see how it fits in with Hilarious in Hindsight since it's neither hilarious nor in hindsight. The nylon/pants comment also seems to be more based on your personal opinion. IMO it doesn't constitute "most" of their outfit. Most of the lower half, perhaps. But again, the boots, the belt, the tactical harness, the not-shirt, and the gloves are nearly the same. I believe it's close enough.

So since I had to delete another attempt at re-adding this, I guess I've got to actually start putting my two-cents in the issue.

I'd be fine with that, but I think using it as a comparison point for some kind of hypocrisy with the people criticizing it is stretching a little. Vamp's design and mannerisms are definitely homo-erotic, but aren't played for fanservice on anywhere near the same level as Quiet is. For instance, I don't remember any part of MGS 2 that was dedicated solely to Vamp bending over and dry humping the air while showing off his barely covered ass to the player for extended periods of time, nor did he have an extended shower scene. Quiet is really on a whole other level of fanservice than any other character in the series so far. Even MGS 4, which is by far one of the most homo-erotic AAA games I've ever played, doesn't have anywhere near the same level of fanservice focused on solely one character.

The comparison that someone made (which I deleted, since this issue still hasn't really been resolved and the post made the same "They think it's bad when it's a woman but it's okay when it's a man" argument) didn't really make a good argument, either. Raiden's forced nuidity at the end of MGS 2 was an intentional move to make the player feel disempowered, since they are now literally and metaphorically naked in the heart of Arsenal gear, as well as feeding into the overall surreal atmosphere of that level. It's a well-structured decision that compliments the gameplay and the story, which I can't really say the same for Quiet's design, which is basically just handwaved away as DAMAGED PARASITES LUNGS PARASITES PHOTOSYNTHESIS PARASITES PARASITES PARASITES.

The closest honest comparison I can see is betweeh this and the treatment of Raikov in MGS 3, and even that can fall under values dissonance, seeing as the Japanese seem to find flamboyant gay people good as comic relief, to the point of it coming off as a bit homophobic to western viewers. Though even then the argument just seems to be "It's okay that Quiet is blatant fanservice because Kojima is homophobic/big into homo-eroticism too, those wacky Japanese!", not to mention it's making the blanket assumption that everyone who criticizes Quit hasn't or doesn't criticize these depictions in the earlier games, which we can't really say for certain.

You make it seem like the comparison with vamp only exists to excuse away the skimpiness of Quiet's design. I can't speak for Darkjezter but that isn't really my intention in wanting to include it. I don't see the harm in adding the comparison in, just mentioning that they dress similarly and perhaps that they both have crazy phlebotenum powers.

Keep in mind these are YMMV tropes here. Not everyone is going to agree on them. That's the point.

Like I said, I don't have an issue with the inclusion in of itself, though I find the comparison somewhat tenuous at best. I just take issue with it being used as an attempt to excuse her design by brow-beating critics through accusations of misandry/hypocrisy, which I find inherently dishonest, as well as a provocative and bias statement that'll just entire further edit wars.

If someone can find a way to re-add the example without doing that, as well as finding a legitimate trope for it to fall under that won't make it natter or an example indentation, then I don't have any real issue with it being there.

I just take issue with it being used as an attempt to excuse her design by brow-beating critics through accusations of misandry/hypocrisy, which I find inherently dishonest, as well as a provocative and bias statement that'll just entire further edit wars.

This. Hence why I'm fine with adding in the fairly neutral HIH entry, but the "people are sexist because their costumes are totally the same, guys is quite dishonest.

Eh, that's easily worked around.

If I were to write it I would just put in:

Counterpart Comparison: Some longtime Metal Gear fans have noted that Quiet dresses similarly to Vamp.

Again, "dresses similarly" grossly overstates it. If you hold up a picture of Vamp, and a picture of Quiet and say "describe this character" there would be a 0% overlap in their responses from a layperson.

I don't know, from the waste up they're dressed pretty much◊ the same◊ to me and apparently Darkjezter as well. Again, Your Mileage May Vary. Not everyone is going to agree on it, but that's okay.

Really, I don't see the harm in putting it under Counterpart Comparison.

Just don't overstate it and that's fine. Because saying they're dressed "the same" is demonstrably false since, well, the bikini top and nylons that is how they differ is 90% of her outfit.

Yeah, no problem. I think "similarly" will do. Adding it in.

EDIT: Aaaaand done. That should be alright I think.

Good enough for me.

Thanks for discussing so we can come to a decent compromise.

Hey, I mean we aren't SAVAGES. This isn't Youtube, after all.

(I'lljustgonotbefunnysomewhereelsenowgoodbye)

Frig, Youtube...oh I won't bring up where this has been such as issue but they make Anita Sarkissian look good. Oh yes I went there. Anita. Sarkissian. Think about that for a moment.

Let's not open that can of worms.

Probably a mistake. We don't make subpages for just a handful of examples.

It's on the Game-Breaker subpage the the Metal Gear franchise.