Discussion WhatAnIdiot / HarryPotter

Good pull. It's not like they hand those things out willy-nilly (... well, a little willy-nilly); she can't use the Turner if she's not taking excessive amounts of classes, which she's not going to do. And there's no "impending war" at this point. No one thinks Voldemort's alive.

... I like how whoever wrote that seems to believe that teachers would support Hermione having a magical artifact of ridiculous power and not using it for its designate purpose. That's funny.

Wait, what? They /know/ Voldemort's spirit is still out there trying to find a way to resurrect itself; Harry confronted Quirrelmort at the end of book 1, and the dude monologued exactly who he was, what he was doing, and how he intended to do it. And in book 3 itself Trelawney throws out a prophecy that Pettigrew will escape and go on to rejoin his master. "No one thinks Voldemort's alive" is a false statement; Dumbledore damn sure thinks so, so does the Order, and so does the Golden Trio.

This seems to be yet another opinion disagreement. Can we just not pull entries on that reason?

I removed the example because I honestly felt that - based on evidence in the book - Hermione had no reason to keep the Time-Turner. She hadn't heard about Trelawney's prophecy when she made the decision to give it up, and doesn't hold any stock in Divination anyway. To her, all the evidence she's seen points to Trelawney being a fraud.

Gess then put the example back up because according to them, it didn't matter whether or not Hermione knew about the Prophecy, she shouldn't have given up the power to travel through time. I pointed out when removing it again that Hermione's only concern when she was in school was getting high grades, which she wouldn't have needed time travel for.

Ignore. Accidentally posted to this topic when trying to start a new one.

Yes, the prophecy is irrelevant. They indeed still knew V was out there, and regardless, even without his (direct) involvement, for two straight years leading up to that point the school had been stricken by various mishaps and calamities, one of which, I remind you, hit Hermie herself and left her in a coma for half a year, and the other one nearly had an innocent man murdered, whom, I remind you, they saved with the Time Turners! So don't you tell me Hermie had no concerns other than grades, or didn't foresee the other calamities striking in the future, or realise the tremendous potential of the Time Turners in preventing or abating them, or that the teachers (half of whom were directly involved in the war) wouldn't understand the importance of keeping the thing by any mean necessary.

Again, what makes you think Hermione gets a say in it? Even the school doesn't; Time-turners are MOM property and they're explicitly heavily regulated. Hermione keeping the time turner would literally mean she'd have to fight for dear life... the MOM would absolutely send Aurors after her to reclaim the stolen magical artifact.

Now, if you want to say there's a What An Idiot in there about how stupidly time-turners are used, I'll back you up on that one.

EDIT: Actually, there are several already on the page that cover that pretty well.

The fact that she willingly gave it back makes me think so. Meaning the MOM didn't demand it back at the end of the year and would've been fine with her keeping it, solely for attending extra classes, of course. How exactly would the Hogwarts team upheld that last part would depend on whether the MOM supervised the use of TT, or if they just trusted the school staff with it. The latter seems more likely to me (because MOM are morons), so it would simply take the teachers to cover up for her. If not, it's "plucking up and taking those classes anyway (and the teachers cutting her some slack) or asking her friends for help with them".

About the "funny" part. Yes, the teachers would've absolutely covered up for Hermie or given her slack during extra classes, because, I can't believe I have to spell it out, saving lives is more important than carriculum, just as it's more important than grades. If teachers or Hermie thought otherwise than they WERE idiots, and the entry still belongs. And it should be a separate one, because unlike the MOM, Hermie doesn't have an excuse of being ignorant. She'd just saved a man's life with it. She knows that MOM is not going to use it to save lifes. She has an opportunity to keep it. She gives it away. She's an idiot.

Again, it's stealing MOM artifacts. And it's not What An Idiot when your suggestion requires massive Out of Character behavior from everyone involved, on the off-chance that they may need it again. There's no over-arching threat out there, keeping it would be genuinely paranoid (Properly Paranoid, as it turns out, but she'd have no reason to believe that). Remember, it's Mcgonnigal who is Hermione's sponsor on the Time-Turner, who's probably the closest to obsessed with the rules as Hermione.

If Hermione had a pressing need, then there might be some vague semblance of an argument. But as-is, it's suggesting that these people are idiots for not committing a litany of felonies for a threat they didn't know was coming. We'd have people crying Character Derailment or What An Idiot if they had done these things.

How is that stealing, if the MOM is aware she has it and is ok with her having it? Yes, they might need to bend the rules a little, but it's not like they hadn't been doing it before or wouldn't do it again. Or she can pluck up and take those classes anyway. It's not going to kill her, unlike not having a TT in a minute of need. As for legitimacy of threats I honestly cannot understand, how words like "Off-chance", "no threat", "paranoid" and "no pressing need" apply, when every year she's been in that school some very real and very pressing threat stroke Hogwarts, not to mention their school neigbours a forest full of monsters, their government employs literal demons, and her best friend is at odds with the two most powerful and evil people alive and only half-dead in the country (and also all the aforementioned thing had tried to kill him at least once). That's not paranoia to expect an eruption when you're living on an active volcano, is it? OTOH, if it's ok to be that oblivious and shortsighted, than why is there a Wa I entry for Fudge refusing to beliveve in V's return? He didn't get a share of the evidence of the threats Hermie had.

Is it stealing for a cop to keep his gun after her leaves the force (hint: yes)?

Again, if this item is anywhere as useful as you make it out to be, how is it not an awful idea for them to give such an artifact to a 13 year old girl for the express purpose of "eh, just in case?" Seriously, as responsible as Hermione is for her age, she's still a 13 year old girl. It's insanity to give her control over time. It's even worse to give it to her and say "well, just use this in 'a time of need.'"

And yes. Something happened to Hogwarts for three straight years. However, the characters don't have the advantage of knowing they're in a serial where a new book comes out that covers each year.

Yes, it is, but Hermie is not "leaving the force". She will still remain a student in Hogwarts and even (technically) attend the classes she received the TT to attend. She will still use it for the intended purpose, just maybe with less neccessity and with a side chance to actually put it to some good use. Where's the theft here or any felony at all? Yes, that side use wouldn't be authorised, but again, they've already done it, it's too late to cry foul now.

Yes, of course, everything that concerns the Time Turners in HP is head-dashingly stupid. Not using them to solve and prevent crimes, keeping them on an open shelf, giving one to a student - it's all asinine, I fully agree, and it's all covered. But none of that excuses Hermie for not taking advantage of the situation.

I'm not getting your point here at all. We're discussing the situation purely from an in-universe point of view. And more than enough horrible life-and-soul-threating calamities (aka "something") had occured there and enough terrible facets of the world revealed to reasonably expect more dangers to come.

Just repulled:

• Hermione herself is not innocent either, unfortunately.
  You'd Expect: That having just witnessed firsthand how incrediby useful these things are at saving lives, having survived two harrowing ordeals in a row in the previous years, which could've been resolved easily through the use of them, and taking into account the sheer number of dangers and perils of the Wizarding world she's now aware of (monsters, Dementors, evil wizards at large), Hermione would hold onto her Turner for dear life. Obstacles can be overcome, precautions can be taken, agreements can be made with the teachers to cover up for her and cut her some slack at extra lessons (if they wouldn't budge in the face of all the aforementioned, then this is directed to them instead).

... still no. Maybe, maybe, maybe there's some way to work it in, but this is still blatantly misrepresenting what happens. She doesn't "give it away," it's something that is issued to her under heavy restrictions. The whole "obstacles can be overcome..." bit is just sheer guessing. There's nothing to indicate that the MOM would be down for issuing the thing to a student for literally no reason. The What An Idiot is reliant on the idea that the MOM would possibly be okay with that, which has no basis on reality.

How is it a misrepresentation, when she literally said she gave it away? Nobody demanded for it. It was given to her for the entire duration of her education. As for restriction, yes, sure, but she'd BROKEN those restrictions already. She "misused" her Time Turner, blatantly using it for purposes other than studying, and guess what, nobody gave a damn! The MOM wouldn't need to be ok with anything - they were already ok with her having it, and they clearly trusted the school staff with supervising its use, and the school staff, namely the Headmaster, allowed its "misuse"! You cannot then just turn around and say that he would be against the idea of further "misusing" it. When I was saying about overcoming obstacles, I was referring to the arrangements necessary to preserve the look of necessit of having the Turner. What's there to guess? I've already outlined them. You have any problems with anything in particular? Hell, I'm not even sure any arrangements would be necessary, since, again, MOM trusted the school with supervising the device, and in general treated them with sheer apathy. There's no "some may to work it in" - there was a sure and very, very, very easy way to work it in - they just had to keep doing what they'd been doing before. It literally doesn't get any easier than this.

She didn't give it away, she gave it to its rightful owners. It was never hers, it was just on loan from the MOM

This WAI relies on a few things:

• That Hermione, a ridiculous rule-follower, would be peachy-keen with stealing a powerful magical artifact.
• That the MOM would have absolutely no system for checking people keeping the Time Turners
• That Hermione has reason to believe she'll need the Time Turner

The only reason for her to be allowed to keep the Time Turner would be for her to keep doing the extra classes, which clearly wasn't sustainable as she was running herself ragged. She wasn't fighting a war, she wasn't expecting danger. She was a 13 year old girl with a ridiculous amount of pressure on her. Like I said, she doesn't have the narrative convenience of knowing she's in a book serial and that danger will strike at the end of every school year. As far as she knows, she's dealt with the greatest threat she's ever going to experience.

Again, the Time Turners are hilariously misused. Doesn't mean we should be counting on the 13 year old girl to steal one just in case.

First, "she literally said she gave it away". — No. She said she gave it back. As in, the Time Turner is not her possession, it is on loan to her from the Ministry of Magic.

Second, "She "misused" her Time Turner, blatantly using it for purposes other than studying, and guess what, nobody gave a damn!" — Well, you're right that the Ministry doesn't give a damn because nobody is telling them anything. Even Dumbledore, who is generally intelligent, makes it a point that he doesn't know what happens (he just suspects very strongly, and since he agrees with the result, he doesn't plan to investigate). However, does Hermione care about breaking the rules? Is Hermione upset about not using it for the purpose which it was given to her? Yes... and part of how you can determine that is she wants to return it. She doesn't want to keep it under false pretenses, because that's not what a "good girl" would do, and Hermione thinks of herself as a "good girl". (Fred and George would, but that's partly also that they could pull triplet/quadruplet gags on people)

Third, "That's not paranoia to expect an eruption when you're living on an active volcano, is it?" — Now, this probably deserves an What An Idiot entry itself, but the characters don't think about the dangers next year. Some of the adults seem to be making some future plans (sometimes), but none of the children are planning ahead for their future encounters with the Dark Lord and his cronies until Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix, which is two books (years) later. You're right that it is dumb of Hermione to not plan ahead for it, but the fact that she doesn't plan ahead means she can't plan to keep the TT to deal with the threats she's not planning on dealing with.

Fourth, "Obstacles can be overcome" — One of the obstacles you're talking about is Deputy Headmistress MacGonnagal. Would she agree to keeping a MOM artifact under false pretenses, and would Hermione ask that of the adult she most respects? Now, Dumbledore would probably agree to the arrangement, but DHMM is the one character that tries to keep him in line and not violate Ministry rules. Hermione would go to her before Dumbledore because she's comfortable with her Transfiguration Professor. There's no doubt in my mind that she would shoot down the idea without consulting the Headmaster.

Hermione isn't an idiot for giving the TT back. As explained above, the MOM wouldn't like it if she kept it.

"it is on loan to her from the Ministry of Magic." Yes. An indefinite loan, at least for the duration of her education. Was there any indication that she was obliged to return it at the end of her third year? No, there wasn't. Would there be any reason for the Ministery to demand it back as long as, by their books, she's attending extra classes? No, there wouldn't.

"...that's not what a "good girl" would do" Ergo, she's being an idiot. Nobody says you cannot be a well-meaning one. She did't use it for a prank, or for personal gain. She saved a man's life and soul with it. If her view of what constitues a "good girl" was that shallow and narrow that it clashed with this accomplishement, then I have no other words for it other than idiotic. Do you?

"she can't plan to keep the TT to deal with the threats she's not planning on dealing with." Well, you're admitting she's being dumb in this! If, after surviving what she'd survived and learning what she'd learned, she's not expecting to deal with more troubles, isn't planning on them, and is letting go THE solution to most of those troubles, then what do you call this if not an idiotic decision?

"There's no doubt in my mind that she would shoot down the idea without consulting the Headmaster." Then SHE would be an idiot, because there's even less compelling reasons to do so for her than for Hermie, since she's more aware of the dangers both inherit and looming. You might notice that I wrote that much in the entry proper. Again, what is the wrongness in my enrtry that neccessitates its removal?

Jesus, haven't you read the book? Time turners are dangerous, people have died from using them! What's more as far as i can tell HP time travel operates on stable time loops, which means you cannot change what already happened. You can only get yourself more time when you need it, or be in two places at once, when you need alibi. In this specific situation Sirius and Buckbeak were still alive, they just didn't have enough time to save them, hence their use of time turner. This wouldn't work if shit already happened. That means "Hermie" had no reason to keep potentially dangerous item "just in case" of very specific situation in which it can be usefull.

Just because it's a Stable Time Loop doesn't mean that it's useless. It just means that she will have already have done the right thing before she needed it.

But yes, everyone but Gess is in agreement that the Time Turner thing isn't a WOI.

I never said "useless" i said that it's usufulness is limited and using it without knowing what you're doing can end up in tragedy.

But i'm glad we're in agreement this doesn't belong here.

I'm also glad you're all in agreement, even though I'm honestly baffled by it, because I haven't seen a single one of my arguments contested.

1. Hermie wouldn't be "stealing" the Time Turner - MOM was ok with her keeping it, as long as she attends extra classes. They also apparently left it to the Hogwarts staff to supervise her attendance. Therefore, all it'd take for Hermie to legitemately keep the turner was to keep attending those classes, and for the teachers to cut her some slack, because there were much more important things at stake than grades. Whoever (be it Hermie, Mc Gonagal, DD, or the teachers) would have any objections to that because "it's not right" or "not what good girls do" is an idiot. 2. Every year through her education, Hermie had encountered numerous dangers, one of which nearly cost her and four other people their lives, and all of which could've been averted with a Time Turner. Another one nearly cost an innocent man and an innocent beast their lives, and she did avert it with a Time Turner, and yes, she did avert it, she shaped the timeline where they survived - there's no "shit already happened" when time travel is involved. If, knowing what she does, she wouldn't realise the tremendous potential of the device or the multitude of situations where it could be vital, she's an idiot.

"using it without knowing what you're doing can end up in tragedy" - yes. Of course. But it's Hermie we're talking about. The one of the only two people in this entire story who usually know what they're doing. And even with the turner's limitation it's still a humongously useful thing that you just don't let go under such a pathetic excuse.

The site staff themselves have said to pull the example. Please leave it alone.

• The first example:
  • Except that what my entry was suggesting was that Sirius remain the Secret Keeper, and hide from Voldemort; killing himself was meant to be a last resort. I considered his canon action an example of this trope because it was, at the very basic level, him being told "One of your close friends may be a traitor." and then deciding "I'll entrust a very important secret to one of my close friends!". He even acknowledges that he made a mistake by doing this in the third book.

• The second example:
  • "I acknowledge that the Snatchers might have put up anti-apparition wards when they first appeared; that's why I put the word "try" in the original example. My issue when making that point was that the trio made no attempt to apparate out of the tent when the Snatchers appeared."
  • As for your point about "Trying to teleport away would be clear sign that they're neck-deep in shit if they're caught", they were already screwed; they'd said Voldemort's name, thus proving themselves to be anti-Voldemort rebels, the Snatchers had surrounded their tent, and were openly threatening them at wandpoint. Things couldn't have gotten much worse.
  • Also, the trio know firsthand that the Snatcher groups vary in ability; some are as dangerous as Death Eaters, while the ones who grabbed Ron before were very incompetent. There was no guarantee for the heroes that the Snatchers would be capable of stopping them from apparating out, yet they made no attempt to try.

The first example is something that is considered stupid because of hindsight. Remember, if Sirius went through your option and die, half of the order would become secret keepers including spy. If Sirius did as he did, Peter was NOT a spy, and Sirius would die, Tom would be left back at square one without any idea who might be secret keeper. Hiding from Tom isn't easy, this is why they went through with Fidelius charm in the first place. The plan only didn't work because someone whom they knew since childhood turned out to be a traitor, something that they couldn't have known in advance. Your option relies on Sirius being able to hide himself from Tom, his option was failsafe in case he couldn't hide himself from Tom. If they ''really' believed that just going into hiding would save them from Tom why would they bother with Fidelius charm in the first place?

About second example i admitt, my argument wasn't very good. Still aparition isn't easy and you have to know exacly where you're going to go, and i don't think they checked the surroundings earlier to pull off your plan, also side-along apparition doesn't seem like something you could do quickly especially with snatchers right next to them, and even if they succeded they would've left all their equipment behind including sword they needed to deal with horcruxes. Remember that at this point Harry was using wand that wasn't his, and snatchers were outnumbering them counterattack wouldn't be particulary easy. In other words you're suggesting that they're idiots for using plan that have very low chance of success instead of a one that had just as low chance of success. What they did wasn't a good option, because they didn't have good options at this point, the only really good thing they could've done was not get into that situation in the first place. Also considering that situation took them by suprise and they were seconds from being attacked i wouldn't expect them to come up with something brilliant on the spot.

So I just wanted to ask a friendly question regarding the first example: If Voldemort had wrongly assumed that Sirius was the Secret Keeper, and subsequently gone after him, found him and killed him...how would he be back at square one? One would think he would want to question Sirius about the Potters' location before killing him. And it's not like Sirius has much chance of being able to keep a secret from Voldemort, who has Legilimency, and possibly access to Veritaserum and a Pensieve, for viewing memories.

The point I'm making is that in this particular scenario, it wouldn't matter whether or not Sirius was the Secret Keeper, because if Voldemort caught him the Potters would be screwed either way. If Sirius is the Secret Keeper, Voldemort now knows where the Potters are, and if he isn't, Voldemort would know who the true Secret Keeper was, since Sirius was the one who convinced the Potters to swap Secret Keeper. Not only that, but he'd know where the real Secret Keeper was hiding, since Sirius mentioned going to check on Peter at least once; the "False Secret Keeper Scheme" wouldn't have bought the Potters much in the way of extra time or protection in this particular case.

So we've established that if Peter didn't tell Voldemort where the Potters were hiding, Voldemort would be able to find out by finding Sirius, regardless of who the Secret Keeper was. The point I've been making is that, despite being aware of all of the above, Sirius took a course of action that gave Voldemort another way of finding out the location of the Potters: He gave the location to a potential traitor. And yes, they couldn't have known if anyone was a traitor in advance, but Sirius was open to the possibility; he suspected that Lupin might have been a spy, which is why he didn't tell him about the changed plan. And it's not like Sirius had no evidence suggesting that Peter might defect to Voldemort; he knew the guy since childhood, like you said, and knew that he liked having big, tough friends who would protect him from harm.

As for the second point, side-along apparition has been the trio's response to a dangerous situation half the time throughout the book. There was the attack on Bill and Fleur's wedding, the escape from the Ministry, Voldemort's appearance in Godric's Hollow, the Death Eaters at the Lovegood residence and the Caterwauling charm in Hogsmeade. Yet they didn't think of it this time, to put it politely. Also, the trio carry all their equipment in a small bag with Hammerspace properties; if they need to escape quickly, they just have to grab the bag before disapparating. Hell, they manage to hold onto all their equipment minus the tent due to Hermione stuffing the bag down her sock before the snatchers grabbed them.

Neither legillimency nor veritaserum are 100% sure, there are antidotes and ways to protect from legillimency. And you youself suggested to keep wizarding equivalent of cyanide pill just in case. My point is that IF he used it in your scenario Tom would get 20 more ways to acces Potters, one of which could be his spy, while in scenario used in the book he would've gained nothing except knowing that the lead he followed was false. And no we didn't establish anything, you've merely suggested one way of finding out, and i've pointed out the flaws in said way.

About the second point the Hogsmeade one doesn't really count since they couldn't dissaparate anyway, for the exact reason i've pointed out in the first place. When they tried to get away out of ministry it backfired because of Yaxley. When they tried to use it immediately after they've brought Yaxley with them Ron splinched. In every other instance one thing was always in common, they had advance warning of a threat, this time they didn't. Apparition isn't easy which is why they have to be licenced to use it. They very well might've needed time to do it properly and clearly at this very moment time was one thing they certainly did not have.

Your previous arguments on the first example read like you were saying that Voldemort's course of action upon finding Sirius would have been to kill him, in order to force anyone he'd told about the location of the Potter residence - if there was anyone other than Dumbledore, as you seem to be assuming - to become a Secret Keeper, thus making it easier for Voldemort to find the place. I pointed out that that probably wouldn't be the case, and explained how Sirius's plan therefore wouldn't have been of much help in the end, and how it gave Voldemort another way of finding the Potters.

As for your other arguments, evidence points to Sirius not being very skilled at Occlumency. If he did know how to use it to a degree that he could resist Voldemort, you'd think he would have taught Harry in the fifth book, rather than leaving him at the mercy of Snape. And with regards to the Veritaserum antidote, it's not like Voldemort would allow Sirius to use it if he captured him, or that Sirius would be able to trick Voldemort and not take it, as happened with Harry and Umbridge. And Sirius evidently didn't modify his memories of changing the Secret Keeper, or he would never have known about it in the present day. I'll acknowledge the possibility that Voldemort could fail to gain any useful information from Sirius - i.e. If Sirius manages to off himself before Voldemort can question him - but I'm not going to ignore the possibility that Sirius might not be able to conceal his secrets from Voldemort.

I know that making Sirius the Secret Keeper wasn't the smartest move at all, given the Fidelius Charm "rules" by the end of the series, but that example's already up here.

For the second point, I never said that side-along apparition worked in the Hogsmeade case. My point was, they tried it soon after they realised they were screwed, without it occurring to them that their enemies might have taken measures to prevent them doing so. Yet they didn't do so when the Snatchers appeared. Also, from the Snatchers announcing their presence to them storming into the tent, the trio had several seconds in which to think about trying side-along apparition. Truth be told, to me that scene came off as the trio being passed the Idiot Ball to move the plot along; if they had disapparated before the Snatchers could grab them, they wouldn't have met Ollivander and Griphook in Malfoy Manor, or learned about the Horcrux in the Lestrange bank vault. That's why I put the example up in the first place. If they had just tried apparating out, and it failed, the example wouldn't have gone up.

And yes, side-along apparition didn't work out too well in the Ministry case, but that was more due to the trio's lack of planning rather than their escape method, as I explained in one of my examples.

Agreeing on Barty passing for Moody. That's not Dumbledore's fault, that's more a statement on Barty's skill and ability.

And... why would there need to be security for the Triwizard Cup? It's the wizard equivalent of pulling a name out of a hat. As pointed out in another WOI (one that I fully back), Harry's name being drawn should as a fourth wizard should have meant "Harry sits in the audience and doesn't participate because he clearly only got in because someone is going to try to kill him." It's not like Harry's name being drawn in of itself exposes him to any sort of danger. There's lots of idiocy here in relation to security, but it's all about how people react (or rather, completely fail to react) to this incident.

Now, I do believe there should have been more security out of fear of cheating (a teacher meddling with the cup in order to make another school's student be someone who sucks, for example). But not out of fear of an attempt on anyone's life.

First, it is much more complicated. Next, it requires planting a homicidal tree on the school grounds, which is bound to attract unwanted attention, since I don't recall there ever was stated an official reason to plant it. Next, it requires planting a homicidal tree on the school grounds. Next, it failed way before Snape, when the Marauders breached the containment and let a rabid beast repeatedly walk around the neighbourhood. Please don't tell me it was ok, because they were escorting him, or that it would've been just as easy to do that in the "Expected" variant.

Except Dumble didn't know about their escapades. And keep in mind that there are students like the Weasley twins or Marauders who explore every possible piece of castle and aren't exacly know for sticking to the rules. If there WAS such a room inside the castle do you think no one would've found it? And if it just happened to be found during full moon it would end up in tragedy. The killer tree which everyone knows is a killer tree makes sure no one comes close to the tunnel, and it won't be found out by accident. And since know one knows that there IS a tunnel no one will try to reach it.

I was actually for this WOI, but it's a good point. The Whomping Willow is a deterrence in the sense of it dissuades kids without saying "don't go here." Telling them not to do something? Makes them do it. However, if, from their POV, there is no point and there happens to be pointless danger? That's a better deterrent.

I still do think the Whomping Willow was a needlessly complex plan (but what isn't at Hogwarts?), but it went wrong in a way that any other plan could as well.

It was Chamber Of Secrets. And it's correct; the Ministry can't detect elves apparating, and they can apparate anywhere (even Hogwarts).

What makes you say that? They clearly can detect magic(just can't detect who's using it) and they DID detect when levitation charm was used by Dobby. They knew that Harry was 12 at the time and might've just assumed he's not capable of aparittion, so they might've assumed that some other wizard just happened to apparate near him.

They did detect the levitation charm... and only the levitation charm. You know, the spell Dobby specifically wanted them to detect so Harry would be expelled. And if they detected a wizard apparating there and just wrote it off as "oh, well it must just be another wizard" then they'd have done the same in regards to the levitation spell. Especially since underage apparation is explicitly illegal for someone to do unlicensed any way. They'd actually come down harder on that.

Given we specifically know elf-magic is different and in particular Dobby's apparation abilities are already explicitly different from a normal wizard's (what with appearing in Hogwarts and places other people can't apparate), it only makes sense that he is capable of hiding it.

1) The destruction of the horcrux is not a valid alarm, because by then it would be too late to apprehend the thief and also it means a horcrux is destroyed, so why do that, even if he has spares? 2) He did create an elaborate defence, so he clearly was worried about the possibility of theft. It makes no sense not include something as simple as an alarm. Neither does it make sense to make the potion non-lethal, unless he wanted to interrogate the thief, for which he would NEED an alarm. 4) Yes, which is why he's an idiot for blindly following his oath when it was going to get them both killed and wouldn't have achieved their goal in any form. DD's an idiot too, of course, I think I mentioned that in the body.

Regarding this topic and the one below, since I didn't get a response, I went ahead and made the edits.

I don't think this example should be on this page in its current state, because I feel it's wrong about a number of things:

• Where is it shown that "only trusted people had access to the Goblet"? Everyone in the castle had access to it.
• If someone wanted to sneak Harry's name into the Goblet, they wouldn't need to disguise themselves (unless they did so to access Hogwarts in the first place). They'd just have to make sure that the deed couldn't be pinned on them. So at this point, no-one has any reason to suspect a disguise.
• The only members of staff who are shown to have knowledge of the theft from Snape's office are Snape himself and Crouch. No-one else knows, and so it occurs to no-one that anyone's using Polyjuice Potion.
• Relating to the above point, Snape just assumes (again) that Harry is responsible, since he was out of bed the night of the theft. Crouch meanwhile wouldn't want to bring it up, lest it compromise his disguise. And while it's likely Snape would have complained to Dumbledore about the theft, to Dumbledore, or anyone who knows the Potions Master, this would come off as Snape being prejudiced again.
• In the books, Crouch Sr. had vanished a while before Moody got involved; the last people to see him around were Krum and Harry.
• Moody's frequent drinking from his flask has an in-universe explanation: he refuses to drink anything he doesn't keep on his person at all times, for fear of being poisoned.
• Also, how is anyone supposed to know that Moody's drinking from his flask once every hour. I think it very unlikely that anyone in the castle was watching him 24/7.

• Only trusted people had access to the /security measures/ around the Goblet, measures which obviously failed. Frig, "Moody" himself is the guy who announces that a very powerful Confundus charm, one beyond the ability of a student to cast, was used on the Goblet. So everyone present knows the Goblet was tampered with, and that it was almost certainly not a student who did the tampering; by the process of elimination, who does that leave? The staff.

• Which still qualifies it for an entry on What An Idiot, because Snape himself is still being stupid in not putting the dots together. I mean, frig, Snape has already figured out that somebody is making off-the-books Polyjuice... what, besides a giant Idiot Ball, is stopping him from going on to figure out 'Hey, maybe this is the same guy as our saboteur!'? It's particularly awful in Snape's case because the guy is supposed to be an experienced double agent and a potions genius ; out of all people in the castle, he is the single most qualified person to put this puzzle together. And yet he just stands there and goes 'hurr derp it must be Harry Potter!' because that's more plot-convenient. Look, Snape may be a total jackass, but he's not supposed to be an idiot.

• Again, all this concedes is that Snape is being chained to an Idiot Ball to make the plot work. In no way does it explain why this entry allegedly doesn't belong on this page.

• So? Someone is drinking Polyjuice on a continual basis; it has to be one of the new staff or one of the visitors; only one new staff member was hired for Hogwarts and he drinks out of his own custom flask all the time, but none of the visitors do the same. It doesn't take Sherlock Holmes to figure out this mystery. Hell, Snape sits at the same table as "Moody" for dinner every night; its another Idiot Ball that the Potions Master himself suddenly forgets what Polyjuice Potion smells like. According to Chamber of Secrets, that shit is rank; anybody near "Moody" when he's drinking some, if they're a potions expert, should entirely be able to tell what he's drinking. Heck, in the book "Moody" explicitly sits right next to Dumbledore at the Opening Feast, uncorks the flask, and sucks some down right there. Apparently Dumbledore had a very bad head cold that day.

• Seeing as how in the books everybody on down to Harry himself (not usually the most observant of people) managed to still notice that Mad-Eye was always drinking from his flask, this argument has a few holes in it. As mentioned above, "Moody" had no reluctance about drinking in front of other staff members or in public.

• I'll concede that the adult witches and wizards were probably the only people who could have tampered with the Goblet's security measures, and that this group of people does include the staff. But there's still no connection between this and someone drinking Polyjuice.
• I read the chapter involving the finished potion in Chamber of Secrets, and while it does mention that Harry pinched his nose when drinking the stuff, it didn't say anything about Polyjuice having a distinctive or unique smell. Besides, Polyjuice probably isn't the only thing in this universe that smells bad. So the claim that Snape or Dumbledore should have smelt something sinister isn't easy to buy.
• The theft of Polyjuice ingredients only took place after Christmas - so at least four months into the school year - and they weren't shown as being a frequent occurance. And again, only a handful of people are shown to have knowledge of them.
• Even if Moody's frequent drinking is noticed by other people in the castle, that doesn't signal that he's obviously drinking Polyjuice; he's got a selection of explanations he could use if questioned. He might be ill and be taking a potion to deal with it. He might be a bit of an alcoholic. Or he might just be very thirsty. And there's no-one in the castle with the authority to demand a look inside his hip-flask except Dumbledore, and he's got no reason to do so, or to believe that Moody has been replaced by an imposter.
• I'll happily admit that Snape's treatment of Harry here - and everywhere else in the narrative - could be considered a What An Idiot moment. But that would be a completely different example.
• The reason I feel that this example doesn't belong is because it's claiming that, in-universe, it was obvious that someone was using Polyjuice Potion, and that it was obvious that "Moody" was this person, and therefore untrustworthy. I thought I'd spent my last post, along with this one, explaining why this wasn't the case.

I have no horse in this race, but I would like to note that YMMV contents can only be contested on the facts. So if the entry says "character did X" but the work actually shows them doing Y, that is a sufficient reason for removal. "It's implausible" or "It's not the only possible explanation" are not valid reasons for removal.

In that case I think the entry should go back in, because I can source everything I'm saying from the books, while the opposing argument is based largely on 'I don't think so' or 'It's not that unreasonable'. But as me putting it back in would be edit war territory, its up to the mods now.

I'd say it's a pretty huge leap to go from "someone's stealing Polyjuice ingredients" to "the person who tampered with the Goblet that was in a public space four months ago must be constantly drinking Polyjuice potion."

... though I really gotta say, "He might be a bit of an alcoholic" is kinda the worst excuse for.. pretty much anything, even though it's par for the course of neglect that seems rampant in the setting.

Well, you can tell how much potion is being made from what quantity of ingredients is being stolen, and Barty obviously needs all the ingredients he's swiping or else he wouldn't be swiping them in the first place. So unless Snape is going to conclude that someone on-campus has gone into Polyjuice wholesaling, he should be concluding someone is drinking it constantly.

Also, the assumption that somebody tampered with the Goblet of Fire as part of a plot to kill Harry Potter and then immediately left the area and never went near the campus again would contradict the first three books, where the person causing the trouble came to Hogwarts early in the year and never left. Why shouldn't they be expecting the pattern to continue?

I'd say it's a pretty huge leap to go from "someone's stealing Polyjuice ingredients" to "the person who tampered with the Goblet that was in a public space four months ago must be constantly drinking Polyjuice potion."

Thank you. That's one of the main points I've been wanting to make.

Also, the assumption that somebody tampered with the Goblet of Fire as part of a plot to kill Harry Potter and then immediately left the area and never went near the campus again would contradict the first three books, where the person causing the trouble came to Hogwarts early in the year and never left. Why shouldn't they be expecting the pattern to continue?

Not too sure when I came up with that assumption. In any case, I'm not trying to push it (deliberately at least).

I'm just trying to look at this from the perspective of a character in the setting, rather than as an external observer who already knows what's going to happen. But for the sake of legitimancy, let's try to look at the facts while doing so:

• First, Harry Potter is illegally entered into the Triwizard Tournament due to someone tampering with the Goblet. It is established that only a highly skilled witch or wizard could have done so. A number of different theories about why they did this are put through by characters in the narrative. For each of these theories, note that none of the possible culprits would need to use Polyjuice Potion, since they already have access to the school premises:
  • Harry somehow tricked the Goblet out of a love of rule-breaking and/or desire for additional fame.
  • Dumbledore entered Harry to give Hogwarts more of a chance of winning the tournament.
  • Someone entered Harry into the tournament in the hope that he'd die competing. The only plausible suspects here (to Harry at least) are Snape and Karkaroff, since the latter's an ex-Death Eater, and the former is pretty sinister and suspicious.
• A few months after Christmas, Barty Crouch breaks into Snape's office to steal Polyjuice Potion ingredients. Snape discovers the theft, but doesn't know who the perp is. He suspects that it was Harry Potter, based on a number of Harry's possessions being dropped in the area. So at this point, Snape is the only person who has good reason to suspect the involvement of Polyjuice Potion.

  • Note: I based my theory that Snape told no-one of the theft on the fact that he didn't go into great detail about it with Filch, and was very reluctant to let Moody know about it. If it's not valid here because it's YMMV, then I'll drop it, but there's still no proof that Snape did tell anyone about it.

• Harry learns of the above break in, having seen Crouch on the Marauder's Map and overhearing Snape talking about it. However, he mistakes Crouch for his father, since they both have the same first name, and doesn't find out until much later that they stole Polyjuice ingredients. Until that time, Harry assumes that Crouch Sr was trying to find evidence of Snape being a Dark Wizard.
• At this point, Voldemort's agents have managed to infiltrate the school three times during the course of the series using a number of methods other than Polyjuice Potion.

From this, I've found a number of people who would qualify for entries on this page:

• The staff. Not for not instantly figuring out the use of Polyjuice Potion, but for not investigating the matter in depth. That example's already here however.
• Everyone who knew about the Goblet's capabilities yet believed that Harry somehow tricked it, due to the fact that Harry's only a fourth-year student at this point.
• Crouch Jr, for failing to properly ration his Polyjuice supply, and/or stealing ingredients from within the school thus putting himself in danger of discovery, rather than trying to source them from outside.
• Possibly Harry, for not wondering why Crouch Sr needed Polyjuice ingredients.
• Dumbledore, for not at least having a look into his school's security after the events of the last three years.

Hokay, I'll try adding some of those individually.

^^ Yes, there's a LOT of idiotic moments going on there, I think expecting too much of the characters is kind of silly. Even plenty of readers, experiencing the event in a much shorter timespan and having the Law of Conservation of Detail on their side, didn't see the twist coming. I mean, we know the Polyjuice Potion was plot relevant because it wouldn't be mentioned otherwise, but as far as Snape's concerned it could just be kids who want to see experimenting.

Incidentally, how has the magic behind the Marauder's Map not been put to greater use? It's a piece of magic made by four kids (none of whom seemed to be horribly exceptional wizards) that can beat Polyjuice Potion, Invisibility Cloaks, Animagi, probably other things I haven't thought of. Given 2/4 of the makers are in the Order of the Phoenix, you'd think that they'd manage to replicate that.

Not with how much of it was being made. "Kid's experimenting" don't steal enough to make Polyjuice in mass quantities.

HOGWARTS SHAPESHIFTING ORGY CLUB!

But seriously, my point is that it could be plenty of non-plot related things. We know it's relevant, Snape doesn't have that luxury.