Discussion WesternAnimation / FrozenII

That's fine with me. I just tweaked the wording of the examples to preserve the original intent but make the example clearer. I did not think I was corrupting the meaning.

Chaotic Novelist just undid my changes without an edit reason or a PM to me so I really don't know what his objections are.

Sure. Let's figure it out here. Honestly, I wasn't aware that I was stepping over well-trodden ground. I thought I was just adding context. I would be glad to listen to other views.

OK the first trope to consider is New Powers as the Plot Demands.

The original version was

• New Powers as the Plot Demands: Elsa being able to conjure images from the past in ice, complete with sound, because "water has memory".

ChaoticNovelist updated it to

• New Powers as the Plot Demands: Elsa being able to conjure images from the past in ice, complete with sound, because "water has memory". This is established as her learning more about her powers as she does about the source of them.

I updated it to:

• New Powers as the Plot Demands: Downplayed in that plot of story specifically involves Elsa adventuring to learn more about her powers and their source. However, her newfound ability to conjure images from the past in ice, complete with sound, because "water has memory" does provide the writers with a means for doing exposition dumps in a visually pleasing manner.

And then ChaoticNovelist changed it back to their version with no edit reason provided.

My reasoning for the changes I made was

- the trope as defined seems to comes across as new power introduced to spice up the character or story or to help the hero get out of a "painted into a corner" situation. Since the plot of Frozen 2 was for Elsa to learn more about her powers (which ChaoticNovelist points out) her gaining new abilities seemed to be an expected result of their adventures. Thus I felt the trope was downplayed.

- The description of her power to conjure images didn't seem to need spoiler tags because it doesn't reveal any plot-spoiling details. To me it seemed no different than the non-spoiler tagged revelation that Elsa gets a new dress.

Upon reflection, I realized that her actual power is not accurately described. Saying she can "conjure images from the past in ice, complete with sound" only occurs when she's made it to Ahtohollan, the river of memory, and it's not clear whether it's a newly gained ability of Elsa or whether it's being done by the spirit of Ahtohollan.

All we know for sure, having seen Elsa do it outside of Ahtohollan, is that she can use the memories contained in water to create ice sculptures that are snapshot of the past... but no sound or movement.

Therefore, I suggest this new wording:

• New Powers as the Plot Demands: The story establishes that "water has memory" and Elsa gains the ability to create ice sculptures that are guided by the memory contained in the water to show a frozen image of the past.

I still feel that describing the power itself does not require spoiler tags because it doesn't reveal any plot details, but I'm not adamant about it.

EDIT: I will be out of town and AFK until Tue 10/25 and will probably not be able to participate in discussion until I return.

Just a quick note: we do see Elsa conjuring ice sculptures along with sound when she's in the ship and recreates the last moments of her parents. Also, her uses of this new power are story relevant, since they allow to find out Iduna was the person who saved Agnar and to confirm that their parents were on that ship. There does not seem to have been an easy way to add this info to the story without Elsa using her powers.

I agree with both rva98014 and Chaotic Novelist that the original version could use updating. More context would be helpful, because the establishment of new powers isn't always this trope. Like you wrote in your previous edit, rva98014, C105 you noted in your reply, Elsa's new ability to conjure memories, which is not an obvious extension of snow powers, appears to have been added to serve the plot. I think the part about it being used as exposition should be added/kept, because it helps demonstrate how this new power fits into the trope.

I don't feel strongly on the use of spoiler tags here, either. I don't think the fact that she has the ability is in itself a spoiler requiring tagging, but I'm also not opposed to it. If we include the revelation about the source of her powers, I think that revelation should be tagged because it's the climatic answer to the story-driving mystery.

My feelings on whether it's downplayed are mixed and I'm not sure whether to say it is or not. It's true that Elsa learning about the source of her powers and whether there's anyone else like her. On one hand, her suddenly being able to conjure memories doesn't necessarily go along with those things, and the timing of it seems rather plot-convenient. As C105 said, it seems like an addition required by the plot. On the other hand, I do think Elsa's powers being connected to memory-keeping and preserving the past ties in well to the concept of the reason she has her powers being because she and "The Next Right Thing" Anna are two sides of a bridge between magic and humanity. However, that connection isn't an explicit one.

How about this?

New Powers as the Plot Demands: Downplayed in that much of the story is about Elsa exploring her powers, but one new ability in particular appears to be added as a way to move the plot along. The story establishes that "water has memory" and Elsa gains the ability to create ice sculptures that are guided by the memory contained in the water to show a frozen image of the past. This provides the writers with a means for doing exposition dumps and giving characters critical information about past events without living witnesses, and it conveniently develops just when the creation of one such ice memory is useful in defusing tensions between the Arendellians and the Northuldra.

Not a bad suggestion, I think it might be best to remove the "downplayed" judgement and since the main exposition dump occurs in Ahtohollan where it's unclear whether it's Elsa or Ahtohollan doing it, I'd tone that down as well.

How about this:

• New Powers as the Plot Demands:is expected because the story is about Elsa exploring the source of her powers. Once the story establishes that "water has memory", Elsa gains the ability to create ice sculptures that are guided by the memory contained in the water to show a frozen image of the past with whispers of sound. This provides the writers with a means for giving the characters critical information about past events.

Good point. If we're removing the "downplayed" judgment, though, I think we should also remove the "exploring the source of her powers" then. Elsa doesn't necessarily need new powers to find the source of her existing ones, so it's not a part of the trope. Maybe this:

New Powers as the Plot Demands: Once the story establishes that "water has memory", Elsa gains the ability to create ice sculptures that are guided by the memory contained in the water to show a frozen image of the past with whispers of sound. This provides the writers with a means for giving the characters critical information about past events.

That looks good to me.

To me, here are the signs that point toward betrayal as the biggest sin:

1) King Runeard builds the dam, weakens the Northuldra land, but the spirits don't rise up.

2) King Runeard organizes a "peace" celebration and actually sets foot in the Enchanted Forest, but although the spirits are clearly active that day, they don't rise up.

3) King Runeard kills the Northuldra leader which leads to a terrible battle, now the spirits rise up and even though King Runeard is killed in the fight, they still seal off the forest.

4) When Elsa is watching the frozen memories of what happened that day, it's the dark memory of the betrayal and murder of the Northuldra leader that overcomes Elsa. This resonates with "Dante's Inferno" where the fourth ring of the ninth circle of hell is a frozen wasteland where the worst sinners, the betrayers to their benefactors, are punished. These condemned souls, frozen into the ice, are completely unable to move or speak.

5) The only thing that seems to appease the spirits is the destruction of the Dam. They knew that would also destroy Arendelle so they chased the population away and waited for the descendents of Runeard to decide to do what was right.

6) Anna even admits this when she says to Mattias, "Arendelle has no future until we make this right. King Runeard betrayed everyone."

The creators of Frozen 2 even storyboarded an ending where the castle of Arendelle was washed away and the epilogue showed it being rebuilt as a joint effort of the citizens of Arendelle and the Northuldra to have some lasting consequences of King Runeard's actions, but is was altered due to deadline pressures.

The Treachery Is a Special Kind of Evil trope says "You can commit war crimes. You can be a Loan Shark. You can even kick puppies on vacation. But if you betray you are the lowest form of creature there is."

That does seem to be attitude portrayed in the film.

1), 2), and 3) are part of the reason why I'm hesistant to say the trope applies. When Runeard builds the dam under false pretenses and lures the Northuldra to a supposedly-friendly "peace" celebration while plotting against them, he is engaging in treachery, and the spirits still don't rise up, which makes me think it's not the treachery that prompted them to act. It's not until violence breaks out that they act.

4) as well. Like the spirits, Elsa reacts more strongly to other problematic behavior. She doesn't freeze when she finds out that Runeard betrayed the Northuldra and secretly built the dam for nefarious purposes, but when she jumps into the well of Ahtohollan and sees Runeard attack the Northuldra's leader with a sword. Her first reaction to finding out that Runeard was treacherous is to scold his ice memory for fearing magic, not for tricking the Northuldra.

"5) The only thing that seems to appease the spirits is the destruction of the Dam."

That's another reason why I'm hesistant. The spirits don't seem to demand that the Arendellians be honest with the Northuldra and explain what happened, but that they "make this right," as Anna put it, and halt the ongoing destruction.

6) is where I think the trope might apply, but I'm not sure. Anna does specifically address the "betrayal" aspect of what Runeard does. She also has a comment in the beginning of the movie when she's four and doesn't know the whole story, a question along the lines of "Who attacks someone who gives them presents?" (I suspect this was going to be part of a subplot in earlier drafts regarding post-Hans trust issues, but that's another topic.) But even she doesn't seem to weigh it more than other crimes. Her first reaction to finding out what Runeard did focuses more on the fact that the leader Runeard attacked was unarmed rather than on the betrayal.

I see your thoughts here and I realize I wasn't clear enough with mine.

I agree there's a lot going on here, a lot of bad things being done. Fear, subjugation, murder, betrayal.

What I see are actions done by Runeard that are leading him up to his Moral Event Horizon and I feel that the spirits don't react until he actually crosses it.

He builds the dam but there's still a chance he could change his mind and take it down.

He comes to the Enchanted Forest with the intention to attack, but there's still a chance he can be reasoned with.

He goes off to talk with the Northuldra leader alone, but there's still a chance Runeard could listen and reconsider his actions.

It's not until blood is spilled that the line has been crossed and his betrayal can't be taken back. Now is when the spirits rise up in fury. He committed himself to his plans and everything he has done is now tainted with betrayal.

To me that's why his death in the battle wasn't enough to balance the scales and appease the spirits. The Dam stands as a testament to his betrayal and must also be destroyed.

Earlier, Elsa finds Runeard's expression of fear distasteful, but it doesn't physically affect her. She only begins to freeze when she gets closer to the memory of the murder which is where Runeard's betrayal is cemented in time. It's where the line is crossed.

These are my thoughts. I admit, I'm not wedded to this trope. I think it applies but I'm not interested in fighting hard for it either.

I did not think that the betrayal was particularly put forward as the most evil Runeard did. It seemed to me that what really shocked Elsa was discovering that everything she had been told so far about her grandfather and the Northuldra was a lie, but there did not seem to be any particular emphasis on the betrayal part of it.

Your point is well taken. The focus I was suggesting is that to the spirits this trope seems to heavily apply given they sealed off the Enchanted Forest and chased the residents of Arendelle from their homes and initially implied that they would only be appeased by the destruction of the dam and, by extension, the city of Arendelle.

Given the degree to which their fury was expressed, Elsa and Anna's feelings about Runeard's misdeeds seem pale by comparison and it was almost irrelevant if they didn't find the betrayal to have much merit. The spirits did.

To be honest, I'm not entirely clear as to the motivations of the spirits, but if it was Runeard's betrayal that angered them, maybe they would have acted right after he killed the Northuldra leader. Instead, they acted while the fight was well underway, and actually after Runeard died. I would be tempted to say that what angered them was the fight and the ensuing mistrust between the two parties.

I think that people tend to think of Bittersweet Ending by comparison with Ralph Wrecks The Internet (which does have a Bittersweet Ending on its trope page), and other movies (listed under Its The Same So Its Sucks in the YMMV page) that end up with two main characters separated.

In this case however, we do not have any onscreen evidence that either sister suffered from this separation - Elsa asked for it, and what we see of Anna after this shows her perfectly at peace with it. And the "separation" is essentially the equivalent of having a sibling moving to the next city for work, since the sisters still communicate freely with each other (even more easily than should be possible with their level of technology) and there is literally nothing preventing them from reuniting whenever they want.

But the sisters being separated is some sort of Fridge Bittersweet Ending if one considers that the first film was precisely about them reuniting and wanting to spend some time together. So having them now living their lives a few dozens of miles apart, with them busy living lives that don't revolve around each other anymore, seems sad to some.

I don't know if there is a YMMV trope for the audience finding something sad while the characters don't. I'm not sure that Esoteric Happy Ending fully qualifies, because, again, there is objectively no onscreen evidence that the ending can be seen as bad in-universe by any characters.

I don't think the movie has a Bittersweet Ending because all the characters are shown to be happy at the end. Esoteric Happy Ending happens when "some of the viewers don't buy the perceived happiness of the finale." Like, they keep on adding the Bittersweet Ending entry :) So it seems to apply.

Ok, so Esoteric Happy Ending does apply here, but it seems we agree Bittersweet Ending does not.

Agreed (though I don't agree that Esoteric Happy Ending would even apply but that's ymmv)

I am responsible for adding this entry, and I was unaware that it had been a subject of debate, since I did not check the history that far. I'm sorry if I appeared to have edit-warred.

That said, I agree it is difficult to compare, but I thought the general mood in Frozen 2 was sombrer than in the first. In Frozen, Anna manages to remain more or less cheerful from the coronation to Hans' treachery. In Frozen 2, she becomes quite worried (mostly about Elsa) from the moment the elements attack Arendelle, and pretty much stay that way until Elsa is back and Kristoff proposes (with Heroic BSoD in the middle). She also noticeably cries much more than either sister ever did during the first film.

Anna also gets to witness firsthand the death of Olaf (the most innocent and cheerful character of the franchise, and who saved her life in the first film), and it takes a lot longer for these two Disney Deaths to be resolved. And this is a personal opinion, but I find that seeing a character cope with grief and loss, even if they manage to get back up, is darker than simply seeing them briefly reacting to them.

We also get to relieve the sisters' reaction to their parents' death, especially Elsa. In the first movie, this was only showed briefly, with Anna singing the reprise of Do you want to build a snowman and Elsa having frozen her room. Now we get a long reaction of Elsa's Heroic BSoD, and we can actually briefly hear the parents' last words (whereas the first movie was so elusive about it that it bordered on Never Found the Body).

I agree that Elsa does have it slightly better than in Frozen - apart from the aforementioned Heroic BSoD and her Disney Death, she is mostly focused on following the voice, and becomes the living picture of serenity once she leaves Ahtohallan. Her behaviour toward Anna during her pursuit (culminating with her pushing Anna and Olaf away) is however quite impacting on them.

We also have Olaf undergoing some kind of loss of innocence during the move, feeling anger for the first time and wondering about what the future holds.

I also found telling that the last song in Frozen was Fixer-Upper while in Frozen 2 it is The next right thing.

And finally, I thought the movie was actually darker - there seemed to me there were much more scenes with a sombrer palette, and there are a lot more scenes at night. I know that Darker and Edgier does not apply to lighting, but I felt it impacted the mood that way.

No worries. It's hard to keep track of all the edits going on with the release being so recent and the movie so big. I remember that it was added after the teaser was released, the mods asked people to wait until the full movie was out to decide whether it was applied, it was re-added sometime in the last week and deleted by someone else.

Elsa seemed a lot happier in the sequel. In contrast to the first movie, the only time I felt bad for her in this one was when she froze, which didn't last long and kind of when she blamed herself for the parents' deaths, which also didn't last long. Both have a counterpart in the first movie, when Hans tells Elsa she's responsible for Anna's death, and then when Anna does freeze and Elsa has a Despair Horizon Moment seeing her sister's frozen body. Kristoff also sees Anna actually freeze, although we don't get to see him really react.

Anna seemed less cheerful in the sequel, but I'm not sure whether the difference is enough to cancel out the marked improvement in Elsa's mood, especially given that Anna did have her own angst in the first one. Then again, in the first movie, most of the screentime is on Anna, who is at least usually outwardly cheerful, which keeps the angst levels relatively low. In the sequel, the screentime between the sisters is more equal, so even if one sister is feeling relatively fine, the angst of at least one is still onscreen for a good portion of the movie.

You also have a point about Anna seeing Olaf die directly and lingering on that death and her reaction to see him die in front of her eyes. Taking another look at the lyrics of "The Next Right Thing" - it does get darker than the first movie. Anna is explicitly expressing suicidal feelings, "ready to succumb" to darkness, feeling that hope is gone and that she's lost her reason for living, and although she picks herself up to save the day, she's clearly still struggling and fighting through it. I don't remember a moment like that in the first movie.

The last time the entry was deleted it cited Arendelle being in danger, and the person who deleted it pointed out that was a problem in the first movie, too. I think the trope fits, just needs to be worded carefully.

I'm glad we agree. So the entry could put the emphasis on Olaf's Disney Death and Anna's reaction to it (including The next right thing), since this is probably the part that has no easy to find counterpart in Frozen in terms of darkness.

There is also the fact that Anna goes on believing her sister and Olaf are dead for much longer than Elsa did for Anna in the first movie, and the fact that their reunion is quite tearful on Anna's side (even if they were Tears of Joy, neither sister was crying during their reunion at the end of Frozen).

How about this?

• Darker and Edgier: The first movie already had sombre themes, but this one manages to up the ante by a fair bit. One point of the whole film is how things eventually change and people have to adapt to it. Apart from the Bittersweet Ending above, we have war, two major characters suffering a Disney Death that takes some time to get fixed without hints that they'll be revived, and the movie uses that extended time to explore grief further and in more detail than previously. Olaf - a character symbolic of joyous and innocent childhood love - dissolves in the arms of Anna, who not only mourns him as his friend, but knows that his death also means that of her sister is dead, too. This takes place shortly after she discovers out that her kingdom must be destroyed, and the usually optimistic and unflappable Anna, left without everything and everyone she'd ever had, reaches her Despair Event Horizon.
  I've seen dark before But not like this This is cold This is empty This is numb The life I knew is over The lights are out Hello, darkness I'm ready to succumb.

That seems good to me at least.

Bittersweet Ending seems likes a huge stretch to me. Both all the characters in the movie were basically content in the end and I don't see why Elsa and Anna not living together should be considered sad when the movie makes it clear they can see each other whenever they want.

The bitter part comes mainly from having the sisters not living together any more, which was a big deal in the first film (if not the whole point), and that the shorts and the beginning of the movie showed them quite happy being together again (Anna sang about how she had all the people she loved with her). So having them seeing each other on a weekly basis (and Elsa not even attending her sister's coronation) does seem kinda sad.

On the other hand, I agree that neither of them seems sad about the ending, and that, apart from that song at the beginning, Anna never explicitly said she wanted Elsa to always stay near her - her only concern during the movie is to be with her when Elsa was doing something potentially dangerous.

I guess part of the issue is that the ending comes very abruptly, and that we don't get to see much of Anna's thoughts on the matter. Then there is the fact that it is not quite easy to understand why Elsa wants to stay and what exactly does she do in Ahtohallan in the end.

two adult siblings not living in the same place doesn't exactly sound all that sad. Like I said pretty much every character in this movie is completely happy and there doesn't seem to be any regrets or opposition to their arrangement. We don't see Anna's thoughts on the situation but considering how happy she is in the end I don't know why we should assume she's sad or conflicted about it. Saying it's a Bittersweet Ending just seems very misleading to me.

This ending seems to be pretty divisive among the audience. Perhaps it could be covered in a Broken Base entry on the YMMV page, but I don't know what to do about the Bittersweent Ending on the main page.

Bittersweet Ending should be removed imo. but before I do I'm gonna get a second opinion.

Just curious, since I see you have removed it already, did you get a second opinion?

....And someone re-added it lol. But yes I brought it up on Is this an example? thread and apparently there has been a lot of misuse of Bittersweet Ending. I'm gonna bring it here for discussion.