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Sep 17th 2019 at 6:54:02 PM •••

I believe that the characters appearing in Pokemon Masters do deserve separate entries from their original subpage entries the page now links to. Given that they\'re characterized quite differently, one would call them different entities, and therefore different characters from their original incarnations. Furthermore, we\'re forgoing a lot of information by deleting the contents of this page, such as the characters\' new models, their sync pairs, their ability/move, etc.

You also have no way of knowing what previously-appearing character is now in the game from the page alone.

This is simply the wrong decision.

Edited by dawndusk Hide/Show Replies
Sep 17th 2019 at 7:27:05 PM •••

We had a whole discussion about it; just scroll down the page to read it. More people said to drop the folders than keep them.

Sep 17th 2019 at 7:34:02 PM •••

Yes, I read it, thanks. I didn\'t realize that meant I couldn\'t opine on the decision - nor did I know that more people saying a thing makes it the right call.

Sep 17th 2019 at 7:58:25 PM •••

I\'m sorry, I thought you hadn\'t. I sort of assumed that if you had, you would have replied to that thread instead of starting a new one. That\'s my fault.

To answer your objections:

  • \"Given that they\'re characterized quite differently\" — They\'re not. They\'re in line with the main versions. One of the ideas behind Masters is that it\'s fleshing out trainers from the games; messing with their characterization defeats the purpose.
  • \"We\'re forgoing a lot of information\" — We\'re keeping the trope information, just in different places. For things like moves and rarity, other sites are better sources of information on that. They\'d be harmless to include if we kept the folders, but for what we do they\'re not enough to justify having separate Masters folders on their own.

Sep 16th 2019 at 6:23:00 PM •••

Hey, does \"The Ghost\" really apply to Red? He makes a physical appearance in Interlude 1.

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Sep 16th 2019 at 6:56:38 PM •••

Hmm. I don\'t remember that. If he does make an on-screen appearance, then he\'s no longer an example.

But it\'s not likely to matter anyway, since his folder\'s about to get cut per the below discussion. Last chance for anyone to speak up if you want it and the other Sync Pair folders kept.

Aug 31st 2019 at 7:41:55 AM •••

Regarding the number of folders for each Sync Pair:

First of all, I apologize for just cutting everything without warning instead of coming here to talk it out first. It was... it was one of those impulse decisions where, after you\'ve done it, you wonder if it was the right move. And clearly it wasn\'t. I\'m sorry.

But that said, I still have doubts whether the current page format with folders for each and every Sync Pair is the way to go. When the folders were restored, the comparison was made to how the Injustice character pages are separate from the DC Comics character pages. I\'d counter that this situation may be more like Star Wars or the Marvel Cinematic Universe. These aren\'t alternate versions of the original game characters, they, for all intents and purposes, are the original game characters. It doesn\'t make sense to me to take so much space for so many characters, and largely repeat the same trope entries, when we can just use the perfectly good character pages that already exist.

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Aug 31st 2019 at 8:40:35 AM •••

I agree that most of these characters would be covered well enough on the original characters pages, especially since there\'s so much content here that isn\'t related to tropes. Obviously this game did introduce a few characters which should be listed here, but this page was probably made hastily due to hype and some things weren\'t thought of completely.

Aug 31st 2019 at 8:54:54 AM •••

I\'m the one who restored the page. I made the Injustice comparison on impulse... if a work page exists, then it\'s ok to list tropes that cover that specific work page. You\'re not supposed to list tropes about Brock\'s Sygma Suit appearance on the trope page that deals with his main-line Pokemon games because those games don\'t have it.

Even the Pokemon anime has its own character pages where the various trainers have personalities and story arcs that the games they came from don\'t cover.

We can hard split the sync pair folders into groups based on number, but the page isn\'t anywhere close to needing to be split yet.

Don\'t get me wrong, I\'m not against it. In fact, I was thinking of splitting off the NPC characters who were made for the game.

And yes, time is needed to properly trope the storylines of each character in this game. The very nature of this game requires a longterm commitment to discover everything. It\'s only been 2 days.

Edited by DRCEQ
Aug 31st 2019 at 9:34:55 PM •••

Does Sygna Suit Brock even have any extra tropes that don\'t apply to regular Brock and are worth noting? Honest question; I don\'t have him yet.

Sep 8th 2019 at 8:13:09 PM •••

So where are we on this? It\'s been over a week, and most folders still have either no tropes or tropes that already apply to the game versions of the characters. I still say we\'d be better off just linking to the existing character pages.

And to answer my own prior question, I have Sygna Suit Brock now. I don\'t see much tropeable material that normal Brock doesn\'t already have.

Sep 8th 2019 at 8:34:26 PM •••

Just leave things as they are. Like I said, this game is going to need time to develop. That means months or years, not a single week. Most players, let alone those who contribute to this site, probably haven\'t unlocked much more character development than the initial \"A Day with X\" that every sync pair starts with.

I\'m currently in the process of adding what official Dex information for the Sync Pairs that I have. The whole character page exists, so there\'s no reason to not use it.

Sep 9th 2019 at 9:46:17 AM •••

That\'s... not exactly a convincing argument, to my ears. I mean, we already have fleshed-out character sheets; there\'s no reason not to use them.

And you might want to rethink adding Dex entries wholesale. I\'ve seen mods worry that copy-pasting descriptions like that could be considered plagiarism and land the site in trouble.

Ultimately, what advantage do you see to doing separate entries for every Sync Pair? Because I see a whole lot of work put in for not many upsides, and even a few downsides in having so much redundant information to wade through. I\'m hoping to nip it in the bud before too much time and effort gets wasted on it.

Sep 9th 2019 at 10:53:17 AM •••

Then let it be my time and effort wasted. As I mentioned earlier, the pojemon anime has their own character sheets, with a whole slew of tropes applying to Brock, Misty, Cynthia, Norman, and everyone else, but those tropes don\'t apply to the games they come from.

Let\'s just say for the sake of argument that this game one day reaches the same level of lore and involvement the Fate Grand Order game has achieved. Fate itself is a massive decades-spanning franchise with multiple anime and game installments and a massive story. Every character listed on the FGO character sheets all have their own personalities and tropes that flesh them out, even though most of them started in other earlier installments that have character pages already... yet it\'s perfectly fine that they\'re listed twice.

What if one day Pokemon Masters obtains that level of detail? We wouldn\'t just be adding them to the established character pages, because every trope would need the caveat \"In Pokemon Masters, X did Y\".

The page exists, it\'s peoples choices (like mine) to contribute, and I don\'t want it to be cut just because of the possibility that it will become neccessary to do all the work I already put into it some years down the road.

If the game doesn\'t go anywhere, then fine, there\'s nothing lost with letting it exist.

Sep 9th 2019 at 11:35:38 AM •••

Well, you\'re not wrong. But this approach still feels less than ideal, from my perspective of someone reading the page.

Ultimately, this hinges on a lot of what-ifs that I\'m not convinced are going to pan out. Especially since my understanding is that these aren\'t supposed to be separate incarnations of the characters; and if a trope appears in Masters it\'s meant to apply to the main versions of the characters from the Nintendo games. That can\'t be said of the anime or manga or other spinoffs.

Personally, I\'d like to get some input beyond just the two of us. If nobody else chimes in, would you mind if I went to some place like Ask The Tropers and asked them to come here and give their take on the situation?

Sep 9th 2019 at 2:19:12 PM •••

Yeah we can take it to Ask and see what they think, but I still think that the game actually needs some time to get going. Worst case, the page gets cut and I can make a sandbox in my own personal to-do list if the need ever comes up for it to exist.

Sep 10th 2019 at 3:26:07 PM •••

I\'ll agree that Pokemon Masters is supposed to build/flesh out more the characters that have appeared in the mainline games (from Red/Green/Blue through Ultra Sun and Ultra Moon). Unless adding the Masters stuff bloats the existing Pokemon character pages to require additional page splits, I think reusing the existing Pokemon character sheets would be best so that we can leave the actual Masters character pages for characters and character variations debuting in this game.

Sep 10th 2019 at 3:40:21 PM •••

Just adding the dex, voice actor, and sync move information is going to bloat those character pages, and adding sync move and dex number information is going to look out of place there instead.

The game currently ends on a productional Cliffhanger, giving a message to wait for more story content to be released down the road, which gives a good chance to focus on the characters.

For the time being, let\'s just leave it alone. We can split off the original characters to their page, or split up the Dex characters by number if the time comes where it is needed.

Sep 10th 2019 at 3:54:17 PM •••

^ Adding trivia does not make a character page. A character page with spotty character info or no character info at all breaks the character page rules as it stands currently.

Link: How To Create A Character Page

Messy or lacking character pages are at risk for being cut. I\'m trying to salvage what info there is before it\'s lost to a cut.

Edited by Ngamer01
Sep 11th 2019 at 2:37:33 PM •••

Sorry DRCEQ, but I agree with DragonRanger and Ngamer that they should just link to their main series character page entries since they\'re the same characters that appear in the main games, and any tropes applying to them should go on those pages.

Sep 11th 2019 at 3:35:41 PM •••

I guess I\'ll just go ahead and add-

Dex #2 Voiced By: Tom Bauer (English), Kosuke Toriumi (Japanese) Rating: 3 Stars Sync Move: Rock-Solid Rockslide (Onix), Sygnature Rock-Solid Stone Edge (Tyranitar)

-to all the character pages then, and people can discuss how out of place that looks when it only applies to a spin-off game. Then when the game does get significant development in time, remake this page and transfer all the tropes back over again. If I have to do that work, I will.

Or I could move the tropes I have listed on the character page and put them on the main page. It\'s not exactly encouraged, but not against the rules either. I see work pages all the damn time that have character-specific tropes listed instead of staying exclusively on the character page.

Sep 12th 2019 at 8:14:05 AM •••

^I don\'t think any of that information is necessary except the voice actor. It\'s gameplay information, and if it\'s relevant to a trope we can just mention it in the trope example text itself.

Edited by rjd1922
Sep 13th 2019 at 7:05:33 PM •••

I second what RJD said. With the actual tropes, I\'m thinking that characterization and \"lore\" tropes (like Viola having an accent) would go to the existing character pages, while game mechanic-related ones (like the weird age difference between Hilda/Hilbert and Cheren) go to the work page. Though a lot of the entries in the latter group aren\'t good examples of their tropes to begin with, and will probably just get cut in the process.

Sep 15th 2019 at 2:48:45 PM •••

I\'m going to make one more call for input. If nobody else pipes up in the next day or two, then I\'d say we have our consensus.

Sep 17th 2019 at 2:57:42 PM •••

I was hoping I could get home from work before you did all the work, because I had an idea of adding the tropes to their own separate sub-section in each character\'s folder on the main pages. There\'s no reason why we can\'t still separate tropes that show up in Pokemon Masters instead of just adding them into the giant lump of tropes. It still makes things distinct and isn\'t discouraged.

Please check out the Cynthia folder and let me know what you think.

Edited by DRCEQ
Sep 17th 2019 at 4:09:42 PM •••

Personally, I don\'t see a need because, barring Player Character cases like Kris and Rosa, there\'s not supposed to be a difference between the Masters and the main versions of the characters; just like there\'s not supposed to be a difference between, for example, Red/Blue Brock and Misty and HeartGold/SoulSilver Brock and Misty. Looking at Cynthia\'s tropes specifically; Statuesque Stunner applies to her even outside of Masters, Our Dragons Are Different applies to Garchomp even outside of Masters, and Early Bird Cameo may not even fit the trope definition now that I think about it. Only Badass In Distress would fit in a separate Masters section, but otherwise would be just fine on the work page instead (in fact, it was already there even before I made the big change).

Of course, all this is just my take on it. If others like this idea, we can make it work.

Oct 23rd 2019 at 3:29:26 PM •••

I agree that sub-sections aren\'t necessary.

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