Ask The Tropers

Now that you mention it, they do feel quite similar. Maybe somebody can bring this up in TRS and potentially suggest a merger for the two?

Well, Fridge pages aren't supposed to have that pseudo-forum pattern. It's supposed to look like it was all written by one person, same as the main pages. So it is a problem that Fridge Logic usually invites people to break the Repair, Don't Respond rule, especially since people tend to phrase Fridge Logic as questions.

^ I always thought that Fridge pages kinda-sorta got a pass the way Moments pages (Heartwarming, Tearjerker, etc.) do, where it's okay to add subbullets adding information/details so long as the entry doesn't include This Troper.

So this would be okay:

* Alice's star sign is Sagittarius—fitting, considering she's very good with a bow and arrow!

** It's also fitting considering she often rides a horse into battle. Sagittarius is associated with the centaur Chiron.

But this wouldn't:

* Alice's star sign is Sagittarius—fitting, considering she's very good with a bow and arrow!

** I also noticed that she often rides a horse into battle, which to me seems to be a reference to the centaur Chiron.

Though it is true that the former example could/should just be combined into one entry.

A few threads about this have been made before, too. What I can glean from them is that Headscratchers seeks an answer, and Fridge Logic doesn't.

^ That's what I assumed, but how do we make guidelines or criteria for one or the other? I think I understand now that Ass Pull is usually based on contrivances of some sort, but I don't know how we'd differentiate between Fridge Logic and Headscratchers.

We could make it a rule that if a Fridge Logic entry is made, then Tropers aren't to make any subbullets offering answers. Problem with that being I imagine a lot of Fridge Logic entries would then be contested if not outright deleted because Tropers could argue that it does have an answer, therefore it doesn't count as fridge logic.

For example, if in a murder mystery work, it's revealed that Alice killed Bob with an incredibly rare poison in his drink. It would be an Ass Pull if it was never said that Alice had said poison, but let's say it was. Someone could make a Fridge Logic entry saying "Where did Alice get the poison? She's just an ordinary waitress, where would she get some really rare poison?" Then someone could delete that Fridge Logic entry with the edit reason, "It's possible that she bought it off the black market or something." I.e., the entry isn't asking for an answer, but there is one—even if it's literally just "it's not impossible"—so it doesn't count.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that if we really try to enforce "Fridge Logic does not ask for an answer," then it'll lead to a lot of arguing.

Fridge Logic being restricted to "belated realizations" is such an arbitrary distinction that I really don't see any reason to keep it separate from Headscratchers.

Like, seriously, why does it matter if the question pops into your head during or after viewing? Confusion's confusion.

Also, a lot of Fridge Logic posts are made by people who simply don't realize there is an answer - they just missed it. Alternatively, people may disagree over whether something in a series is actually a plot hole or easily answered. So if we get rid of the thread mode, it'll probably just get replaced with constant edit warring because people won't agree over whether something is a real logical failing or just something the troper just didn't understand.

What's the point behind the distinction?

From a logical standpoint, there's none. It's pointless and arbitrary.

From a trope standpoint? Fridge is all about those delayed realizations, so that's why this explanation exists even if it really shouldn't.

You're all right about the distinction feeling really arbitrary. Why not seek an explanation? My earlier answer was meant as "this is the distinction I'm observing" and not "this is the distinction so this question is bad" or anything and I really hope I didn't come off that way

^^ "From a logical standpoint, there's none. It's pointless and arbitrary."

So what you're saying is....this discussion is Fridge Logic about why Fridge Logic exists? :P

Anyway I think we should add this to the TRS candidates list. Headscratchers only exists because of a previous site relic that was reworked for being redundant anyway.

^^^^ What I'm afraid of.

^ Oh no...we're going too deep...!

Basically Fridge Logic seems just...pointless? It apparently is about a "delayed" realization, which, like others above have said, why does it matter when someone comes up with the question? "A question that does not ask for an answer" is going to be really hard to meet, because like mewtron said, one man's plot hole is another man's easy answer. And as mewtron and I both noted, trying to get rid of thread-style editing for Fridge Logic will probably just cause a lot of edit wars.

I really think it'd probably just be best to get rid of Fridge Logic and just let it be Headscratchers.

Will bring this to TRS.

I added both items to Tropes Needing TRS citing this thread.

Actually, I notice that in some Fridge subpages, they just do away with Fridge Logic entirely, and directs you to the Headscratchers/ instead.

I've denied the TRS thread. An ATT topic itself is not sufficient reason for a TRS and the structural difference - Headscratchers is a questions and answers forum, Fridge Logic a repository of such moments - precludes a merger.

More than a few times, I have found Fridge Logic pages with responses, and simply copy-pasted them into Headscratchers. I also found a few works with duplicates on those two pages, and deleted them from Fridge.

The best practical distinction I can imagine is that if nobody can give an explanation to a point raised on Headscratchers (after say six months), then we could move it to Fridge. I even saw some editors deleted Headscratchers entries on the grounds that they had no responses, apparently feeling that this made them into stealth complaining (which a few clearly were, but it seems to me a bad policy).

A waiting period may actually work well. But would it also be possible to maybe have something like the Complete Monster thread, where Fridge Logic entries need to be approved first? I can see two potential issues even if we tried the waiting period:

1. Someone might argue "just because one wasn't given in the six month period doesn't mean there isn't an answer." 2. A Headscratcher may not have a satisfactory answer in the six months, but who decides what's satisfactory or not? Like I said, some arguments for Fridge Logic just boil down to "well, it's technically not impossible."

It may also be best to go ahead and make it clear that Fridge Logic entries aren't to be treated like Headscratcher pages—assuming there's not already such a notice on the page.

I really don't want a CM-style approval thread, they rarely ever go smoothly unless the tropes are Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard. A cleanup thread could be a good idea but an approval process, I don't think that's necessary. It'd just be a huge headache, especially since as you pointed out, it's incredibly subjective.

Maybe we should go the opposite route and embrace the subjectivity by making it one of those pages that need user signatures? Then it's people adding their own personal realizations and not something we need to try and enforce on the basis of accuracy.

I noticed that quite a few Fridge pages have a Fridge Logic section which consists of only a notice that says "On the headscratchers page."

Fridge Logic sections do not need answers, and anyone deleting them for lack of answers needs to stop doing it.

Also, Ask The Tropers is not a general chat forum for tropes. Use Trope Talk, please.

There was another discussion about this recently.