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The trope is about the modern high heel, which as you acknowledge is an almost exclusively feminine piece. The riding shoes worn by European aristocrats are rather far removed from the modern shoes associated with stuff like #girlboss. It is worth adding as fun trivia, but not so much as an outright scope expansion.
EDIT: Thinking about this some more, a section on historical origins should probably also add that men stopped wearing them because they started to be seen as frivolous (so they became associated with women), so in a way, the high heel as a symbol of the modern working woman turns that on its head.
Edited by Synchronicity
Perhaps.
Maybe there would be historical (pre-20th century) examples where women wore high heels as a symbol of authority.
Of course, even in the 1950s, where most women wore thin heels, women were still expected to be housewives by society, yet they seem to have that sense of authority on who runs the house and its domestic affairs. Of course, thin heels in the 1950s can also mean sexiness in the case of bombshells like Marilyn Monroe and dominatrices like Bettie Page.
Edited by alnair20aug93 ᜇᜎᜈ᜔ᜇᜈ᜔|I DO COMMISSIONS|ᜇᜎᜈ᜔ᜇᜈ᜔
pointing out that by readding it without discussion you were edit warring. come to discussion first next time.
Migrated to Chloe Jessica!
Yes, but Dakos 25 was edit warring just the same way. Removing the same bit twice without discussion.
This was one of the few tropes I tried contributing to in TLP, and I remember the discussion quite well.
Drakos 25 was, from the very beginning, extremely unreasonable when it came to this trope and High Heel Hurt. They had to be Always Female, with no mentions of when high heels can be worn outside these very specific circumstances.note It was very frustrating trying to talk things over with Drakos; they already had a specific idea in their head and any suggestion the didn't conform to that was unceremoniously ignored.
...Apologies for the rant. This trope and a couple of others made me realize that I have no patience for TLP and are the reason I gave up on it entirely. Anyway, my point is: Drakos is very protective of their pet tropes.
Edited by RoundRobin - Fly, robin, fly! - ...I'm trying!
It does kinda is kinda wonking in the case for Drakos.
Not to mention, it kinda excludes crossdessers, drag queens, and transpeople on this... Hmmmm...
And I do think platform heels in The '70s in both sexes can convey this in the respective case of pimps for men and disco divas and feminists for women.
v My ignorant mistake. Correcting it. Edited by alnair20aug93 ᜇᜎᜈ᜔ᜇᜈ᜔|I DO COMMISSIONS|ᜇᜎᜈ᜔ᜇᜈ᜔
^hi. im a transgender woman. i am not "a transgender". transgender is an adjective, not a noun.
anyway, if this is Drakos 25's wonk, that changes the situation somewhat. ive definitely seen people taken to task for being too defensive of "their" trope pages. that should be dealt with.
Yeah, Drakos needs a tap on the shoulder.
And this trope might need TRS to make it more broad.
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Hi. I just wanted to join the discussion, and add my two cents.
When I named and designed that trope, I specifically meant stilettos/pumps when I said "high heels" which was one of the reasons I was so against all the stuff about the riding shoes, lifts in shoes that are generally considered "flats", and elevator shoes (which are "platform shoes," which is its own category). Stilettos/pumps being archetypically feminine.
During the drafting phase I was not the only person who opposed the tangent about men in heels. At least one or two other tropers agreed that would be better suited for a Useful Notes page.
It was meant to be something of a companion to Combat Stilettos, which is an Always Female trope, but unlike that trope, also pertain to non-combat situations. It was also for how women specifically are portrayed in them.
I felt that examples of men in heels shifted the narrative away from that. Because then it more communicates that he's more fluid in some aspect of his gender identity, and should/could be a trope of its own. Perhaps something like Men In Heels or something.
I would like to apologize for my combativeness on the subject. When I get an idea or have a certain point I'm trying to make I can get really inflexible. It's something I'm trying to work on. And I felt like the person or person(s) who were pushing all this stuff about men were doing wonking of their own, so when they kept bringing it up I got a little irritated.
Perhaps I should have called the trope something different so that the importance of the female aspect was more apparent from the get go. That is a definite fault on my end.
I also feel, in regards to some of my wonking and, interpersonal, issues on here, I should mention that I am on the Autism spectrum. Specifically, I have what was once deemed Aspergers Syndrome (I was diagnosed before Aspergers was combined with Autism as a whole). So I tend to fixate on certain subjects, hence the wonking. It's also part of why I can come off the way I do when these conflicts arise.
Either way, I'm sorry for the trouble I have caused in this regard.
Edited by Drakos25
Yeah, their defensiveness is worrying, though if the trope currently is Always Female then I admit I don't see much point in having that part of the description; maybe in an Analysis or something but if the trope itself is written to be female-specific I'm not sure that line is really necessary. Just my 2 cents though and I'm not saying the trope should be female specific- just that there's not much point in bringing it up if it's unrelated to the actual scope of the trope.
Then again, I might just be a bit biased since I usually prefer trope descriptions to be focused as much on fiction and media usage as possible and not get into the real-life lore and implications behind it. It's just not what's interesting to me when I'm learning about a trope, so anything that doesn't describe the trope itself in media doesn't seem worth mentioning in my opinion.
Edited by WarJay77 Current Project: Incorruptible Pure Pureness
^ I'm in agreement with a lot of your points War Jay 77. Especially the preferring trope descriptions being focused on "fiction and media usage as possible and not get into the real-life lore and implications behind it" thing. And the "there's not much point in bringing it up if it's unrelated to the actual scope of the trope," has basically been my reasoning as well.
That being said, I suppose the trope could get a rename or something that make the Always Female aspect more apparent.
Edited by Drakos25
^^^ Thanks for clarifying, and apologies if there was some tension between the trope. I myself have HFA, so I do think our interests, points of view on the trope, and levels of wonking differ.
If we have a separate trope regarding men wearing high heels, that would be at risk of being chairs, and it's uncertain if historic chairs are acceptable. But men wearing high heels to convey femininity and authority would sound tropable, though there would be setbacks with lumping it with High-Heel Power or splitting it.
^ Perhaps a rename would do. Since you originally meant for this trope to be about stilettos and pumps as female sexuality and empowerment, that would be specific, but it risks at that that trope being too narrow. High Heel Girl Power would make it specific and broad for high heels at the same time.
Though when it comes to the trope, it could question on how high should a heel be for a woman to be empowered, and there would be subversives like Margaret Thatcher, being an Iron Lady and only wearing two inch heel shoes, and Hillary Clinton who wears kitten heels.
Edited by alnair20aug93 ᜇᜎᜈ᜔ᜇᜈ᜔|I DO COMMISSIONS|ᜇᜎᜈ᜔ᜇᜈ᜔
I think Men In Heels is a viable trope if it focuses on the femininity/androgyny of it. The 'authority' inherent in such seems to be related to the defiance of gender norms in most cases. But this is a job for TLP :-)
Edited by Synchronicity
^^ I don't think Men In Heels would be a chair. There are examples in media, Him from powerpuff girls, the king of France in that 2011 3 musketeers movie.
But when a man is shown in stilettos/pumps, it tends to communicate a different message to a modern audience than a woman in those same shoes. The narrative is different, enough so that yes, I do believe Men In Heels is a trope that can stand on its own.
Edited by Drakos25
@Synchronicity Pretty much my thoughts as well. Me In Heels would more be about the androgyny of men in such an article of clothing, since that is often the point when used on a character in media.
Plus it would be the perfect spot to put that history lesson about there was a time when heels could be worn by a man without it being feminine/androgynous, until that changed.
^ Come to think of it, Men In Heels is tropable. It has more cred than Man in a Bikini.
Regarding the rename for High-Heel Power, I think High Heel Girl Power would sound better and more specific.
Edited by alnair20aug93 ᜇᜎᜈ᜔ᜇᜈ᜔|I DO COMMISSIONS|ᜇᜎᜈ᜔ᜇᜈ᜔
@alnair20aug93 As far as how high the heel would be, I'd say anything that approaches the immediate family of pumps could definitely qualify. So pumps, stilettos, kitten heels, those crazy pole dancer shoes, and yes, even a two inch pump like Thatchers, would count. Loafers and dress shoes would not.
^^ It's at least comprable to Man in a Bikini.
And I think High Heel Girl Power could be a good rename. Gets the point across without being a total upheaval of the original name.
Edited by Drakos25
Remember though, renames are the territory of TRS and can't happen without a damn good reason.
Current Project: Incorruptible Pure Pureness
^ That, and backlog.
The other option would be sending High-Heel Power back to TLP and rename it. A way to bypass that without losing the page and its edit history is to rename the draft before unlaunching it. The draft would be unlaunched, but the trope page stays until it is redirected.
Try to check the Discussion page of High-Heel Power if it works.
Edited by alnair20aug93 ᜇᜎᜈ᜔ᜇᜈ᜔|I DO COMMISSIONS|ᜇᜎᜈ᜔ᜇᜈ᜔
It's been launched for like a year now so there's not much sense in kicking it to TLP; that's just a way to bypass the proper process.
Current Project: Incorruptible Pure Pureness
yeah you can't rules lawyer your way into a name change without going through TRS. it's about policy, not the mere technical ability to do it.
Drakos makes a good point - in current media, a man wearing high heels plays completely differently from a woman wearing high heels. that validates having the trope split by gender imo.
Fair point, and that would be a Loophole Abuse.
Well, a TLP for Men In Heels would be best.
ᜇᜎᜈ᜔ᜇᜈ᜔|I DO COMMISSIONS|ᜇᜎᜈ᜔ᜇᜈ᜔
Bump.
Again, a separate trope for Men In Heels is a nice way to stop the confusion.
ᜇᜎᜈ᜔ᜇᜈ᜔|I DO COMMISSIONS|ᜇᜎᜈ᜔ᜇᜈ᜔
I'm not sure why you're bumping this thread. ATT is not the place to resolve the issue in full.
The consensus seems to be leaning towards two things: 1) start a Trope Repair Shop discussion for High-Heel Power (obligatory note: its first post needs to be very convincing, and usually a wick check is required) and 2) start a TLP draft for Men in Heels.
This Is a Wiki, so anyone is welcome to do so. :-) Posting a link to the threads once they are made would be fine, but otherwise I think this was resolved.
Mods didn't comment here, so I assume the edit-warring thing is forgiven. :-) But please be careful about that in the future.
Edited by XFllo
I have to question this. I had wrote this down on the High-Heel Power page concerning the origins of the trope:
But Drakos 25 kind of deleted it. I tried expanding it to this:
But they deleted it again.
Not sure why they would delete a historical tidbit. Is the tidbit missing some certiain aspects, or is it denying that men used to wear high heels as a symbol of authority then women started to wear them as a symbol for power until high heels became an exclusive female article? From the TLP draft
, the sponsor seemed to be adamant that high heels for sex appeal and power is an Always Female trope. I do think that men wearing high heels nowadays can convey femininity rather than convey power; and probably respect for women in the case of the "Walk A Mile in Her Shoes" fun run.