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6th Apr, 2019 04:35:40 AM

One, it's already an edit war. Add-remove-add is precisely an edit war (since both additions were by the same troper).

Two, as a person who has not watched The Dragon Prince I'd say the examples do not provide sufficient context. How many balistas were there - one or several? How many shots were actually fired, and how many of them actually hit the intended target (the dragon)? How was it shown - if it was shown, that is - that the dragon did the following attack out of spite and not as retaliation for getting shot at? Have there been other such incidents in the past, with different results (i.e. human weapons actually hurting a dragon)?

A person with the name Antidragon adding examples about dragons does not inspire confidence... Especially since words such as "seemed" and "apparently" make it seem like guessing or speculation.

Ands also, there's the incorrect Example Indentation that needs to be fixed if the examples are deemed valid.

6th Apr, 2019 05:04:55 AM

B) The tower has like six to eight balistas around the top. A few shots were fired and missed, leading to Soren needing his sister to use dark magic on the next shot to magically track and strike the dragon. This shot it in the chest and took down the dragon.

It was only after the first attempt on the dragon after the first shot missed did it start attacking the city itself.

In the start of the season, the dragons have been flying over the human lands but none were actually attacking now.

He also added some lines against the religious leader in the country for her wanting to find the rightful king to help lead them and not trust in Viren, a chancellor who is a practitioner of black magic.

6th Apr, 2019 12:08:25 PM

Soren himself said it was he fault actually attacked, plainly the Dragon reacted to an attack and acted accordingly.

6th Apr, 2019 12:22:34 PM

In response to SHADOWBLACK:

1; In regards to it being an EDIT WAR: My rational was that the page was Your Mileage May Vary; Dr. Death's mileage Varied, and taking it down anyway kind of defeats the purpose of the page existing in the first place. Still, I am unfamiliar with the exact protocols and edicate regarding an EDIT WAR, so please pardon me if I broke a taboo or something.

2 In regards to context;

-There were four ballistas each pointing in the four cardinal directions. Soren fired one shot initially, two more shots were fired after the Dragon started burning everything, but all three missed by such a wide margin that Soren declared that it was impossible to hit the dragon. Claudia then proposed using magic to enchant the next bolt to never miss it's target, and only then were they able to shoot it down. So 3 of four shoots missed, and the 4th only had a chance of succeeding with magical assistance.

-After the initial bolt, the dragon flew off to a distance that prompted Soren to claim that he had scared it off, before it returned to attack. By then it was safely out of range and retaliation was unnecessary.

-The Dragon did not assault the tower that housed the Ballistas exclusively. It also strafed the town of innocent villagers below. It did attack the tower directly a few times, but it also ignored several opportunities to assault the tower in order to inflict collateral damage on the civilians below.

-There are examples of humans harming dragons in the past in this setting, but the situations regarding those encounters have still vague at this point. We do know that the king of the dragons was killed when he was ambushed in his own den by human assailants.

3. In regards to my username; I've had my username Antidragon for years now, long before the show was even announced. Check my profile if you don't believe me.

4 I always use words like seemed and apparently when making additions to a YMMV page. It's YMMV after all.

5 Finally, I'm not entirely sure what an incorrect Example Indentation is.

In Response to Tuvok; Yes Soren did say that, but the tropes I cited (Strawman Has a Point and Unintentionally Unsympathetic) regard how the story translates to the audience regardless of the author's intent.

Edited by AntiDragon4185
6th Apr, 2019 01:02:37 PM

Indentations should not be for more response. Add or correct the initial bullet. Or, if it is this addition is enough of a subpoint to the primary bullet, make it all the subset level.

6th Apr, 2019 01:21:37 PM

Thanks, I'll keep that in mind from now on.

6th Apr, 2019 01:48:49 PM

Regarding the edit war, the protocol around here is that if an edit is contested, the correct course of action is to cease editing the example until a discussion was had and a consensus was reached. Whether you were right or wrong to add the examples doesn't matter as much as the fact that you didn't try to discuss things beforehand. Something else to keep in mind for the future.

6th Apr, 2019 02:21:04 PM

Regarding Strawman Has a Point, my concern is whether it is using the trope correctly. Who is the strawman supposed to be in this scenario?

6th Apr, 2019 05:40:35 PM

^I actually have a problem with both entries on that account, because the show's message is more about opposing war and the Cycle of Revenge than either side being necessarily worse. It's not like the audience is supposed to be rooting for the dragon when it burns down the town, which makes it hard to see how Unintentionally Unsympathetic fits.

6th Apr, 2019 06:28:00 PM

^ Good point. Later a character points out that the dragon burned the town, but another character is determined to help the dragon anyways, wanting to break the cycle.

Callum: I don't get it, Rayla. Why are you so worried about a dragon that just set fire to a town?
Rayla: I've been thinking about something someone once told me. About how when one person hurts another, then that person hurts them back, it becomes a cycle that never ends. [Ö] But, Callum, to break that cycle, someone has to take a stand when no one else will.
(transcript from here)

Edited by Twiddler
6th Apr, 2019 09:29:00 PM

@ Twiddler To my understanding, a Strawman is someone who's position is treated disingenuously to make someone else look better.

In this case, Soren receives and accepts the full blame for the damage the dragon inflicted even though it was the dragon (which is an intelligent species in this setting) who made the decision to a) return and continue the fight, and b) go out of its way to assault civilian targets.

Is there another trope that fits this sentiment better?

@ nrjxll I admit thatís a good point as well; I perceived that rooting for Callum and Rayla working to free the dragon was akin to rooting for the dragon itself. Upon re-watching the scene in question, Rayla was more invested in improving relations between Katolis and Xadia than she was in the dragonís welfare, and Callum was solely concerned with keeping Rayla safe.

I still maintain Soren wasn't responsible for the Dragonís willing and pointless malice, but thatís more a case of Unintentionally Sympathetic than its sister trope.

(edited to fix link + misspelling)

Edited by AntiDragon4185
7th Apr, 2019 04:18:05 AM

While the dragon did attack the town, it hadn't for several days. It hadn't at all escalated the fight. It was when humans fired at him did he respond with attacking the town. Soren was stupid to think he could actually hit the dragon on the first volley. He was prideful and he recognizes that later.

Also, while Opeli is refusing to side with Viren, note that the man rushed the funeral of his king to try and claim the throne himself. Opeli doesn't know he has committed treason with certainty but is highly suspicious of the man. All she sees is a man who uses dark magic, who is an extremist in any situation, now trying to take more power for himself when the true king is missing. To use real world context, this feels like the President's Chief of Staff trying to run the USA while the Vice President is missing but alive. Viren like the Chief of Staff are advisers to the king not the rulers.

Boarder skirmishes have likely been happening for years from both sides, so that is harder to argue about the elven side raising stakes.

7th Apr, 2019 05:49:09 AM

More to the point, are these tropes representing the opinions of the actual fandom? Unintentionally Unsympathetic and Strawman Has a Point are both Audience Reaction tropes; if they are not representing the opinions of the audience, and are rather just the opinion of one person, then they don't apply.

7th Apr, 2019 04:08:10 PM

@ isoycrazy;

1 Escalation requires one side to pose a credible threat, otherwise it's just one side looking for an excuse to beat up the other. As you said, Soren was stupid to think he could hit the dragon; it was not in any danger, and the resulting destruction did nothing to ensure the dragon's safety. Furthermore, The Dragon was capable of making it's own choice. To use real world context; a gunman who pulls a trigger bears full responsibility for what the bullet does, not the person who was mocking him a moment earlier.

2, the example with Opeli isn't even part of what is being debated here. Nevertheless; a) this is a medieval monarchy, not a modern democratic republic, b) deadlocking a country in the middle of a crisis is a terrible position to be in (especialy when a hostile forign power is involved), such that it's not unheard of for exceptions to be made, and c) the Trope used was Strawman Has A Point, not Strawman Is Correct.

3, maybe the border skirmishing has been going on, maybe it hasn't. We don't know either way.


1 All I can say is that it's a sentiment shared by my immediate circle of friends. If that's not enough, what is the qualifier for using this trope at all? Do we need to sign a petition? (Note; I'm not trying to be sarcastic, just honestly curious).

2 What's the point of even having a Your Mileage May Vary page if it doesn't tolerate varying perceptions? That's the whole reason it exists in the first place.

7th Apr, 2019 05:07:42 PM

YMMV does tolerate varying perceptions...if those perceptions are shared by a significant chunk of the fanbase. If everyone put their own personal pet theories on YMMV pages, they'd all get bogged down with examples that only one or two people agree with.

8th Apr, 2019 03:30:23 AM

"If everyone put their own personal pet theories on YMMV pages..."

You mean like what happned with Voltron: Legendary Defender? *shudder* I remember that train wreck.

In fact, with that in mind, I'll take down the entries if only to decrease the chances of a reapeat. Thanks for pointing that out.

8th Apr, 2019 09:31:39 AM

To put in my own cents since I was mentioned in here.

1. Mr., not Dr. I did not go to evil medical school; student loans are a bitch, and the payment plan consists of "hold the world hostage after you graduate," which is not the most reliable plan.

2. "Escalation requires one side to pose a credible threat, otherwise it's just one side looking for an excuse to beat up the other." Soren and Claudia shot it down; sounds like a credible threat to me. That they missed the first few shots doesn't mean they're incapable of doing harm.

It's just plain not reasonable to expect the dragon to instantly conclude that there's no threat from ballistae being fired at it, especially when one of those ballistae does in fact hit it and shoot it down. It's a thinking creature, not an omniscient one; it almost certainly does not have the same information that we do. All it knows is that something down there is trying to kill it, so it responds in kind.

And while it's tempting to say, "Well, they cheated using magic," remember that "humans cheat by using magic" is the whole reason humanity is separated in the first place, so it's common knowledge to magical creatures like dragons.

If anything, I'd expect the dragon to conclude that since they're firing on him, they must believe they can harm him, and are preparing some kind of magical strike to take him down (which, incidentally, is exactly what happens).

8th Apr, 2019 07:49:58 PM

First, no shame in Mr instead of Dr; that's my sister's chosen career, and she's said that "taking over the world would be childs-play compared to the weekend shift!" But I digress.

"It's a thinking creature, not an omniscient one"

That's an excellent point. It's easy to assume that a centuries old, magical, sapient force of nature would know everything, but in retrospect it is extremely doubtful said dragon ever read a ballista operating manual. When it circled back and continued the fight rather than escaping (my main sticking point), it may simply have been ignorant of the ballista's range and was understandably unwilling to turn it's back on a combatant.

"remember that "humans cheat by using magic" is the whole reason humanity is separated in the first place"

I wouldn't say that magic is "cheating" so much as "incredibley rare", to the point where just encountering it is a fluke. Remember that Callum's mother got herself killed rescuing Viren since he was the only magic user in the entire kingdom; it's not something the humans have ready or wide spread acess to.

9th Apr, 2019 08:58:03 AM

I wouldn't say that magic is "cheating" so much as "incredibley rare", to the point where just encountering it is a fluke. Remember that Callum's mother got herself killed rescuing Viren since he was the only magic user in the entire kingdom; it's not something the humans have ready or wide spread acess to.

We know that — the dragon doesn't. Look at Rayla's and Callum's inaccurate notions about what the other side is like. They've been separated for so long that the best they have is fear-inspired rumor and misinformation. It would be really easy for anyone on the magic side to jump from, "We banished all the humans to the other side of the continent because they use dark magic," to, "We could run into dark magic in human lands any time, without warning."

Also, we don't know that this dragon is centuries old; it could be relatively young. If you imagine it's a youth who's out on the equivalent of a joyride — maybe even going where he's not supposed to in defiance of some authority-figure dragon — its actions make even more sense.

9th Apr, 2019 10:27:26 AM

Expanding on that, the dragonís decision to assault civilian targets could be another example of Poor Communication Kills. Since 100% of the adult dragon population are massive, powerful beings who are capable of defending themselves, the whole notion of separating a population into ďCombatantsĒ and "Non-combatantsĒ may be an alien concept for them.

Well, if weíre at the point where Iím making arguments against my own position, I guess itís a good time to throw in the towel. I concede the argument.


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