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No, I absolutely did not restore "most of the complaints" I restored one single entry, which I reworded to be more neutral and factual beforehand.

For context: Modern Warfare 2019 includes a lot of content that portrays Russians in an extremely poor light as one dimensional monsters. I don't think this is something any reasonable person could disagree with based on the content of the story. Modern Warfare does not portray Russians as "2D action movie goons" just doing their jobs as soldiers and antagonists. it portrays them as inhumanely, systematically evil. For example:

Russians are portrayed as invading an innocent pseudo-Arabic country with no moral justification whatsoever, and no higher plan than exterminating the population.
Russians are portrayed beating innocent civilians begging for mercy.
Russians are portrayed as forcing civilians to watch the public executions of their neighbors.
Russians are portrayed executing unarmed and surrendering civilians en masse.
Russians are portrayed attacking children with intent to kill.
Russians are portrayed nonchalantly executing wounded civilians
Russians are portrayed torturing helpless and innocent prisoners.
The one Russian character allied with the protagonists shows no qualms in kidnapping an innocent woman and child so the protagonists can threaten to execute them (by pointing and firing unloaded guns at them, among other things) in order to psychologically torture the child's father.

Contrary to what Fishious Rend claims, there are to my memory no examples of 'good' or even neutral Russian characters in the main story to counterbalance this portrayal or in any way say "Hey, not all Russians are monsters." There might be some minor content in multiplayer - I don't know - and if there is, I'm perfectly willing to see that included as part of the trope entry. But that does not negate everything else I've seen.

All of this is factual, objective, content in the story. I am not "complaining" merely for listing objective content that appears in the story, to back up the justification of a trope. Yes, it's a lot of content, because of lot of content exists. Fishious Rend's reasoning seems to be that I've provided so much evidence to substantiate a trope, it's now complaining and doesn't qualify as the trope anymore. At best, it seems to me this would justify a stylistic edit.

Tropes exist for a reason. If this does not qualify as a story 'Demonizing' a certain group, than what does?

"Modern Warfare does not portray Russians as "2D action movie goons" just doing their jobs as soldiers and antagonists."

First off, I don't know if you've played the reboot or the other games in the series, because at one point in the pre-rebooted series, the Russians take their own civilians hostage for an extremely bizarre reason. That's absolutely the kind of 2D action movie goon bullshit COD is known for, but it isn't calling for open warfare on Russians.

The stuff about the Russians doing all that? Sure, it happens, and the game pins it on Barkov to excuse, as before, 2D action movie bullshit.

Per Demonization:

"Of course none of that is true, or completely true, but that's how Demonization works. It's about twisting facts, or making them up, to make something look worse. Sometimes it can actually go as far as claiming something is satanic, but usually it's more down to earth. Either way, these claims are made either without proof, or counter to actual evidence."

This is about a fictional conflict. As I stated, the thing that maybe qualifies is the fact that an American war crime is passed off as a Russian one, but it's also transplanted into the fictional conflict as being part of a fictional history.

"The one Russian character allied with the protagonists shows no qualms in kidnapping an innocent woman and child so the protagonists can threaten to execute them (by pointing and firing unloaded guns at them, among other things) in order to psychologically torture the child's father"

As I said in the PM you sent, this isn't Demonization because the protagonists are doing something worse than kidnapping said woman and child (per your explanation, they're psychologically torturing said woman and child) and at this point, they've already done stuff like murder Russian soldiers who happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time and killed several people who were trying to moderate not-al-Qaeda. This is also ignoring the fact the co-op and multiplayer campaign shows Russians in neutral and positive lights and brings in an American faction that is all but stated to be villainous.

You also complained about Farah's faction being "starved, sickly girls" beating out a conventional military force, which as I pointed out, has historical basis (and it's not just anti-Russian, see the War on Terror, Vietnam, etc, etc).

Bumping, as I'm not sure if this has been resolved.

Bump, has anyone notified other fans of the work/franchise of this discussion? If this is highly contentious, discussion might need to be moved to the discussion subpage or the media thread about the work.

I don't think there's anything here that particularly requires fan input. The question is not whether this content exists in the story or not. Fishious Rend seems to concede that this all does indeed happen - "The stuff about the Russians doing all that? Sure, it happens.." The debate is whether this content justifies the trope of Demonization.

If we establish that this is factual and objective content in the story, is there any reason why the content I listed above does not justify Demonization? Because frankly I don't see any merit in Fishious Rend's objections, and some are plainly absurd. ("This can't be Demonization because it's a fictional conflict!")

Fish is also pushing misinformation, claiming the actions taken by the US Military against the Iraqi armed forces on that highway is a war crime. When are valid combatants in retreat any less valid?

If I'm not mistaken, Demonization is about In-Universe characters being a victim of In-Universe Propaganda Machine. (It's also marked for No Real Life Examples, Please!, so the connections to real events should probably be split to Historical Villain Upgrade). I'm not the game's expert, but the listed arguments sound like they fit into Black-and-White Morality (or Designated Villain) more, which in general words is already listed on game's page.

I can also advertize Is This An Example thread, if the discussion is mostly about if something does or doesn't fit a certain trope.

I don't see anything in the Demonization page that indicates it's restricted to one group In-Universe 'demonizing' another group In-Universe.

This is not one person, and this is not a fictional group with no real life analogue. It's a clear example of a real life group being portrayed in an incredible negative light. Russians are not a fictional group. They exist. Surely that has implications and meaning that portraying a completely fictional group in an extremely negative light does not? Furthermore, Black-and-White Morality does not mean "These guys are super evil."

I'm going to have to agree with Sieben. A fictional conflict doesn't disqualify it from being Demonization. It's one thing to portray Russians as goons, it's another thing to portray a real-life American war crime as a Russian one.

As for the protagonists despicable actions, it depends on the framing of the game. Are their actions portrayed as wantonly cruel and unnecessary, or are the protagonists vindicated because their cruelty was necessary to stop a greater evil? Can you actually kill the woman and child and stoop the Russian's level, or are you prevented from doing so?

No, you cannot kill them.

While the Western protagonists do some bad things, and while Russians in other Call of Duty games do bad things, none of that qualifies as Demonization because there are always counterexamples of moral and good characters. Furthermore, nothing I've seen in other Call of Duty games approaches the constant, visceral, Obligatory-War-Scene-Of-Horror evil committed by Russians in Modern Warfare.

One stupid, evil, meany Redhead being stupid and evil isn't Demonization. That's just an evil character. That's an absolute staple of pretty much all fiction. Every single Redhead being stupid and evil is Demonization, and that's what occurs in Modern Warfare.

First off, let's keep cool here. For those not in Call of Duty fandom, the Modern Warfare reboot inflamed a lot of Russians in today's political climate, as this probably shows.

If we establish that this is factual and objective content in the story, is there any reason why the content I listed above does not justify Demonization? Because frankly I don't see any merit in Fishious Rend's objections, and some are plainly absurd. ("This can't be Demonization because it's a fictional conflict!")

Not what I said, and you're also ignoring the fact not-al-Qaeda gets the lion's share of "evil bad guys". As I said in my PM, the game does justify this (flimsily or not) by establishing this as happening in General Barkov's division.

Also, per the current definition of Demonization: not every Russian (per your admission) is a total demon, and the game isn't spewing Fox News propaganda about how we need to be harder on Putin.

This is not one person, and this is not a fictional group with no real life analogue. It's a clear example of a real life group being portrayed in an incredible negative light. Russians are not a fictional group. They exist. Surely that has implications and meaning that portraying a completely fictional group in an extremely negative light does not? Furthermore, Black-and-White Morality does not mean "These guys are super evil."

I'm aware it's Call of Duty, but the game puts a minimum of effort to show it's, again, Barkov's division and not the Russians as a whole. You've already brought up Nikolai, but I'll stress the fact the extended campaign has neutral and positive depictions of Russians.

Furthermore, nothing I've seen in other Call of Duty games approaches the constant, visceral, Obligatory-War-Scene-Of-Horror evil committed by Russians in Modern Warfare.

I'm asking this sincerely: have you played other Call of Duties? Because Modern Warfare 2 has nearly all Russian forces explicitly target civilians - the first is due to a terrorist attack that a Russian terrorist group pins on the US and the second has dialogue about American soldiers watching Russian forces murder evacuating civilians. The newest Black Ops has Russia nuke all of Europe if they succeed. And before we get additional charges of Demonization, the former is due to American spies murdering civilians and the latter is actually an old American plan.

I'm asking because, between your previous ATT query and the previous complaining entries I removed, if you have a bone to pick with the game, do it on the YMMV or Review page.

—-

As for Hashiriya R 32, this isn't misinformation. I don't want to get into more political chest-beating , because the Highway of Death is still a big point in left vs. right arguments about the War on Terror, but there you go.

The issue I would really appreciate some actual feedback on, is if a work of fiction is agreed to have portrayed a real life demographic in an extremely negative light, does such a negative portrayal qualify as Demonization?

I really do not want to spend the time and effort to type out all the reasons why Fishious Rend's objections that Russians not portrayed badly are very mistaken if nobody is going to read them and nobody is going to care. Fishious Rend has changed the reason why this is not Demonization about six or seven times now, and I have little doubt that if I do, he will imagine up six or seven more. First it was because that pointing out how Russians are potrayed was "complaining" and Word Cruft. Then it's because Americans are actually the bad guys. Then it's because it can't be Demonization because it's not "calling for open war on Russians." Then it can't be Demonization because it's a fictional conflict, since apparently stories can't demonize groups if the story is fiction. Then it's because Russians in other games are bad. Then it's because the Middle Eastern enemies are actually the much worse bad guys. (Apparently since the Americans and Middle Easterners are actually both much worse, Russians are actually the good guys in the story.) And so on and so forth. I can respond if someone (besides him) asks, but suffice it to say, these objections are completely incorrect.

As to the issue at hand, I don't see any reason why a group being portrayed in an extremely negative light by a story should not qualify. Demonization is on the Writing Pitfall index - this wouldn't make sense if it was restricted only to in-universe groups hating each other.

> The issue I would really appreciate some actual feedback on, is if a work of fiction is agreed to have portrayed a real life demographic in an extremely negative light, does such a negative portrayal qualify as Demonization?

Yes it does. A lot of real life demographics/beliefs are found in the Demonization page , so I don't see why it won't apply for Call of Duty.

The thing about Demonization is that, what the subjects do don't matter. It's the framing surrounding the subject. From what I'm gathering, when the Russians do morally objectionable things, it means they're the bad guys and have to be stopped. When the protagonists do morally objectionable things, it's necessary because they need to stop the Russians.

Regardless of whatever faction did, the narrative firmly takes a stance against the Russians who, as described, are "2D action movie goons" which is pretty standard fare for Demonization.

Calm down. Barring moderator intervention, the is this an example thread is also your friend if you feel that my arguments aren't valid. And even if Demonization is valid, it'll have to be way less complainy.

Also, (Apparently since the Americans and Middle Easterners are actually both much worse, Russians are actually the good guys in the story.) Is still not what I said.

Once again, listing objective and factual events that occur in a story is not "complaining." I'm sorry it bothers you that there's such an overwhelming amount of evidence to support this trope. I intend to inform the reader of all of it, so far as that is reasonably possible.

If you feel it's objective, then you still need to take it to that thread, too, and if you feel Demonization isn't comprehensive enough, then try Trope Repair Shop. As it stands, it's still hyperbolic complaining about All Russians(tm) being bloodthirsty killers insulting Putin's character or something. I've already pointed out a possibly-valid instance of Demonization, but I still don't think it might fit.

I'm not interested in spending a month in TRS merely because one person (you) raises an objection on what a trope might mean that I see nobody agreeing with and no evidence to support. I do however see a dozen or so examples of works Demonizing real life groups. You are perfectly welcome to take this to TRS if you think these dozen or so examples are all incorrect.

It's increasingly looking like nobody really has an answer to this question. I'm inclined to let this post stay here for a very solid length of time to give anyone who wants to provide feedback plenty of time to do so, and if no feedback appears, make an executive decision that there is no reason why Demonization should be restricted to In-Universe characters and factions who hate other In-Universe characters and faction.

In the meantime, I might suggest you that use to the time you write your own version of the example, and I'll be sure to give it the proper consideration. Naturally, I expect it to include all the information I listed above.

Bump. Any other feedback?

Keep in mind I'm only tangentially familiar with Call Of Duty, but I think it's fair to describe the Russians as demonized, particularly with the "Highway of death" stuff

^^^ Frankly, that seems like No, You but with extra steps. As you've gone at length about how you won't accept any argument otherwise, I think something besides ATT might need intervention here, and as you haven't used the thread posted except for a non-COD inquiry, I don't know what it is.

If no other significant feedback appears, I'd like to restore this trope entry in 5 days time. (December 1st.)

Considering the already present examples on the page, its presence on the Writing Pitfall Index, the lack of any indication that it should be limited to In-Universe characters and factions who hate other In-Universe characters and factions, and comments I've seen here, there seems to be more or a less a consensus that stories which Demonize real life groups are legitimate examples.

As to Fishious Rend's original Edit Reason that the example was "complaining" and Word Cruft, I've asserted and continue to assert that I'm not complaining merely for providing plenty of factual and objective evidence within the story to substantiate a trope. I haven't seen a single other person disagree with this or argue that these events are not objective and factual content. Fishious Rend has also received notice that if he wants to rewrite the trope entry, I'll of course give it proper consideration.

As for Fishious Rend's objections that Russians aren't portrayed badly, these are simply wrong. Again, I'll be happy to provide elaboration to anyone who has questions. Modern Warfare does portray Russians as one dimensional monsters.

Assuming no significant feedback appears and I'm not instructed otherwise, I plan on making one more bump 24 hours or so before and restoring the examples after waiting a day. Thanks.

Reading through this, Sieben's assessment seems more correct.

I also think they're right about the fact that Fishious seems to be Moving the Goalposts and sometimes backpedaling. I noticed that myself while reading through this, and I have to agree with Sieben's judgment.

Me too. It seems to me that demonization is an appropriate trope here.

Judgement calls on me aside, as long as the trope isn't a mess like the complaints I already removed and takes into account the stuff I've already pointed out, then I'm fine with ATT's decision. That said, OP, you didn't notify me in P Ms and you haven't responded to the conversation we had then.

^ For the record; that's not judgment call on "you". It's a judgment call on the arguments made.

Surely you can understand.

This looks like a pretty solid consensus to me. I'll wait 24 hours and restore the entries. Thanks, everyone.

^^ I have no idea what you're trying to imply by linking back to my own comment about his refusal to use TRS.

I don't think it counts as Demonization because everything mentioned fits better under Unfortunate Implications since at no point in the campaign is there a direct statement that all Russians are evil and Barkov is supposed to be acting outside of Moscow's orders.

^^ The point is, you seem to be aware that you can criticize someone's argument or lack thereof.

^ Unfortunate Implications requires a citation. More than that, the two aren't really mutually exclusive. Also, as stated before, demonization doesn't seem to require an implication that "all" of a group are bad.

From how I'm understanding the description, Demonization involves an intentional effort to make someone out to be worse than they are, whether they've actually done bad things or not, and nothing I see seems to prove that there was an intentional effort on Infinity Ward's part to make out most if not all Russians as evil, but just a main villain and mass murderer who just so happens to be Russian who's been disavowed by the Russian government.

^ Exactly how do you prove "intent" outside of the context of the work?

From where I'm sitting, this:

Is more than enough context in the work well beyond "just a main villain and mass murderers who happens to be Russian". Further, there is again nothing that states that a work has to portray ALL of them that way. The Token Heroic Orc to whom others claim You Are a Credit to Your Race and claim as a Bigotry Exception doesn't invalidate the demonization of the rest.

^^^ I really don't know how that doesn't count. I've already argued:

• The original entries were word-for-word restoration of previous complaining, and as Modern Warfare is controversial in Russia and attracts a lot of politicking as a result, I'd like to keep complaining off the page. I'd like to point out I'm not against a Demonization entry at all, because I've already pointed out the use of an American war crime being transplanted into a Russian one.
• OP's examples are "all Russians are depicted as babyeaters", which is wrong for the reasoning below, on top of the fact I've pointed out a more valid example that was ignored for "moving the goalposts".
• The "Russians" aren't a monolithic force, because I've already pointed out Barkov's force is blamed for all the atrocities. That's flimsy action movie crap, but it's still a justification.
• The "Token Heroic Orc" you're citing is downplayed because, by the other troper's admission, the "good guys" are in the process of doing something far worse.
• There's an Arabic faction and an American faction depicted as just as nasty as the Russians.

^^^What does a "direct message" even mean? "Directly" from who?

From the creator? I can't think of anything else you might mean by "direct message."

Are you suggesting that this doesn't qualify as Demonization because this story doesn't end with a Very Special Message of the creators themselves saying "Hi, we're the developers and writers of Modern Warfare, and we think Russians are evil. You should too." Unless we have a message of the creators directly and explicitly saying this, their story is not Demonizing? Should I go on the Lord Voldemort character page and remove every trope referencing evil because we don't have a "direct message" from JK Rowling saying "I am JK Rowling, creator of the Harry Potter series, and Lord Voldemort is evil."?

As far as Unfortunate Implications goes, I don't see any implications, inferences, or hints here at all. The demonizing content of the story is overwhelmingly clear and explicit. We see scene after scene after scene after scene after scene of Russians committing acts of outrageous, indefensible evil. You've seen the list I wrote. If this content only qualifies as an implication that Russians are bad, what on Earth possibly qualifies as explicitly showing it?

As I said initially and will say again, this is not a portrayal of one main villain who happens to be Russians. It is a portrayal of an entire real life group as inhumanely and systematically evil. Unless I am very much mistaken, none of the content in the game says these actions have been "disavowed" by the Russian government. There's a couple of paper thin lines of ambient dialogue suggesting the Russian government may not know the full extent of what Barkov is doing. Again, unless I'm very mistaken, there's no content at all saying they disapprove or disagree, and certainly no content actually showing the Russian government doing anything whatsoever to stop him.

This doesn't stop being Demonization because other characters off-screen who we never see once, who we never talk to once, who have absolutely zero effect on the story (In other words, characters who for all intents and purposes do not exist) might be better. That's always the case, no matter how badly a story portrays a group.

And even that is an extremely generous interpretation. Because we know for a fact the Russian government is bad. We don't know for a fact that they're malicious. But we do know for a fact that even if they hypothetically do oppose Barkov, they're either too stupid, too lazy, or too weak to do anything to stop them. And not for a week - but for a minimum of ten years. That alone is an extremely negative portrayal of a government that fits well into the trope of Demonization.

Factually and easily provable untrue. As I will yet again repeat, I've edited the entries to be neutral and factual before restoring them.

As evil and unacceptable-in-the-real-world the psychological torture session is, threatening to shoot a child is nowhere near as bad as actually shooting children and other civilians en masse. It's absolutely laughable to suggest it's far worse. Furthermore, this is one single event by one small group of characters, who are shown to be generally good people "otherwise" and in no way indicated to be wholly representative of their group.

Absolutely false. Again, none of the actions of characters committed by any other group come close to the evil we committed by Russians again and again. And as I will once again repeat, there are Arabic, American, and British characters who shown in clearly good lights.

Fishious Rend, as far I'm been concerned, your objections have been addressed and rejected. Right now, all I think we're doing is putting the rest the idea that this is not Demonization because there is not a "direct statement," whatever that means. As soon as this last issue is cleared up - and given how cut and dry it is, I don't intend to wait all that long - I intend to restore the entries you took down.

^^ There's a difference between Voldemort's gang basically being Magic Nazis and Russians being lead by a crappy general in MW.

^ Factually and easily provable untrue. As I will yet again repeat, I've edited the entries to be neutral and factual before restoring them.

As per my previous link to my last query, it's a restoration of the complaints I already removed.

As evil and unacceptable-in-the-real-world the psychological torture session is, threatening to shoot a child is nowhere near as bad as actually shooting children and other civilians en masse. It's absolutely laughable to suggest it's far worse. Furthermore, this is one single event by one small group of characters, who are shown to be generally good people "otherwise" and in no way indicated to be wholly representative of their group.

You used Nikolai aiding the kidnapping as an example of MW's demonization of Russians. I'm just responding to that example.

Absolutely false. Again, none of the actions of characters committed by any other group come close to the evil we committed by Russians again and again. And as I will once again repeat, there are Arabic, American, and British characters who shown in clearly good lights.

Did you miss the intro, where not-al-Qaeda bomb several children while attacking London as part of their war, or the part where another not-al-Qaeda member shoots a father and his child, or, as I've said, the post-campaign, where both the American and Russian governments prioritize not-al-Qaeda while a laundry list of atrocities is read off before each mission?

I intend to restore the entries you took down.

I trust you won't have any objections to any rewrites or additions.

You guys have to calm down.

The thing is, your complaints both here and in the initial discussion are moving the goalposts. This originally started about complaining, and when that was addressed, then it became about "not all Russians". Then it became about "well these other guys are also bad". And so, and so on. That's textbook Moving the Goalposts. But, I'm not going to dwell on it, because it's clear you don't agree. So I'll just address the points Sieben hasn't.

This isn't really relevant. Just because Fu Manchu is only one villain, that doesn't suddenly make the character not racist and problematic, along with other Yellow Peril villains. Are there any other Russian factions in Modern Warfare that the main characters deal with just as commonly or prominently as the Big Bad's? If not, then I'd say this qualifies as Demonification.

Even if this were true (nothing stated so far convinces me that it is), it's not a zero-sum game.

Since this query is getting really long and neither party seems willing to compromise, I’m going to lock this query.