People Keep adding Real Life Examples: Gay Conservative

When we created this trope we banned real life examples because of the flame bait potential.

However, people keep on adding real life examples.

This most recent time, someone first edited out the line that banned real life examples. And then edited it again to add real life examples. What can we do to stop this?

edited 27th Nov '10 11:26:17 AM by Sackett

Ban the Hard Headed Too Dumb to Live Idiot?

edited 27th Nov '10 11:30:20 AM by Raso

Edit locked that article for that troper.

I've added an in-line warning as well.

Wow, didn't actually realize it was a rule — I figured it was some editor's advice. I honestly thought it was because people would cite all sorts of rumors rather than hard facts, so I naturally assumed hard facts would be alright if they were empirically verifiable.

Out of curiosity, what is the actual reason Real Life examples are prohibited? Rule Of Cautious Editing Judgment is cited, but I actually honestly can't see the specific problem, if it's not a matter of rumors vs. facts. Please explain?

And no, I'm not going to try to re-add it again. I seem to have stumbled over some unpleasant Flame Bait I didn't understand the seriousness of. I mean, I'm gay myself — is there some sort of issue I'm overlooking that makes this issue more volatile than I anticipated?

And Raso, please, I'm not that Hard Headed. Please, don't resort to flames or personal attacks. I did what I did because I simply didn't see the harm in it. This is actually the first time I recall trying to add a Real Life examples list where one appeared to be discouraged, and this one is discouraged for unexplained reasons (and my guess for the reason appears to have been mistaken). The reason for it ought to be explained, or else someone else with perfectly fine intentions may end up doing this all over again.

If it might shed some light on the issue, I don't understand what makes gay people too controversial to cite. But then, I don't really know many conservatives personally — I've mainly read about them. Most of the people I know are also gay or themselves have lots of gay friends, and whether someone in Real Life is gay or straight is more a point of trivial fascinating interest rather than a point of any kind of controversy. I know there is some kind of conservative taboo about gay people, but what I don't understand is how there can be inflamed emotions and the like, especially over something so ordinary. I think perhaps maybe this is something that can be marked up to one troper's Values Dissonance with (social) Small Reference Pools. It's rather unsettling to be called Too Dumb to Live when I'm fairly well-educated and do a lot of reading. It's just a lot of my first-hand experience that is limited. I do not like unpleasant situations, but at the same time I don't always recognize where they will be.

So, considering I meant no harm and foresaw no such backdraft, can we all be amicable? I am certainly not here to cause trouble for anyone, and I actually feel rather sore to have faced such a heavy negative reaction... I enjoy tvtropes and have made many productive edits to various pages on this site. You can examine my edit history if you want.

edited 1st Dec '10 10:22:30 PM by Gilgameshkun

I don't understand what makes gay people too controversial to cite.

Many conservatives think of "gay" as an insult or that to accuse a conservative of being gay is insulting. (I strongly disagree, but I am probably near the front of the zeitgeist wave, and we are worried about the middle and back, in this case). Citations for factual accuracy is more of a Wikipedia thing: WP is more likely to distinguish between sourced and unsourced regardless of how flamebaity it is, whereas TV Tropes is more likely to distinguish between flamebait and not flamebait regardless of how well-sourced it is.

The Rule Of Cautious Editing Judgement is more specific than you seem to appreciate. 9 times out of 10 it means "this is flamebait"... flamebait gets chainsawed regardless of how factual it is.

Really, no "tropes" should have Real Life examples, they are storytelling devices planned in advance, and real life is not. But life imitates art, so there you are. But some articles specifically disallow RL examples because they are natter/flamewar magnets. Usually because some consider the trope to be a flaw or criticism.

(BTW, just guessing, as a troper who has observed the culture on this site; these aren't "official" TV Tropes views.)

edited 1st Dec '10 11:33:26 PM by rodneyAnonymous

Huh...if being called gay is anyone's Flame Bait, I'm not sure I want to understand it. I'm a gay man with many friends and fairly good self-esteem, and I don't really crave being treated abusively. Such a prejudice against gay people has so many Unfortunate Implications and seems too prohibitively toxic. Why would anyone want to be anti-gay? (Rhetorical question.) So, I'm not always readily understanding of why someone is, nor do I really want to risk the heat to find out. But I also prefer to not treat or acknowledge abusive prejudicial behavior as something valid, because to do so would give prejudiced people power over gay people like me. Someone else's bigotry simply does not matter to me, even if they have a tendency to flame other people — they are the ones who behave poorly, and I don't let them intimidate me by trying to make me act or think like being an LGBT person is anything other than perfectly benign and ordinary in every situation. It's not healthy for a person to have to consider how you may be categorically hated in any given situation, and a gay person (or a gay editor) shouldn't have to be asked to consider that — not if they're otherwise being fairly benign. To me, Rule Of Cautious Editing Judgment implies "don't mistreat gay people" — if someone mistreats gay people or gets inflamed by them, they are not practicing caution.

edited 2nd Dec '10 12:43:37 AM by Gilgameshkun

(comment removed by Gilgameshkun)

edited 2nd Dec '10 12:48:49 AM by Gilgameshkun

(comment removed by Gilgameshkun)

edited 2nd Dec '10 12:48:54 AM by Gilgameshkun

Sorry about that.

edited 2nd Dec '10 12:49:27 AM by Gilgameshkun

Well... This topic is Flame Bait not just because some people find it an insult to be gay, but because of the implication that conservatives that are gay are somehow traitors, self-haters, ect.

Basically it attracts venom from both sides, so it's better not to allow any real life examples.

It's not necessarily that they're gay per se that's the problem (heee, rhyme), but that drawing attention to gay Conservatives as if they're somehow freaks, irl, is a bit odd. You wouldn't even note a gay liberal's existence. Making a big deal out of a rl Conservative being gay is thus like admitting there's something contradictory in the positions, which is offensive to many socially progressive Conservatives and gay men.

Eitherway, We are about tropes (Which are found in works of fiction)

Not Real Life. Real Life sections are accepted so long as they do not have the risk of becoming a problem, the moment they do, or have the potential to do, they get removed. (See Proud Warrior Race Guy) for example.

While your edits might have been fine, that would be opening the gate to more Real Life examples, some of which may be more questionable.

When you put it in ways like that, it makes a lot more rational sense.

By the way, I added Gay Conservative to the Locked Pages list, since I noticed it is listed as locked.

edited 2nd Dec '10 2:49:32 PM by Gilgameshkun

Ummm, it's not locked. I can edit it just fine.

^^I'd read Fast Eddie's post in this thread.

......Crap, it's just me? Now I really feel put on spot. :( Since we seem to have cleared up this misunderstanding, may I be unlocked? I already made a promise not to repeat my edit, and I don't want the stigma of being banned like a common vandal.

edited 2nd Dec '10 4:07:26 PM by Gilgameshkun

Just want to say, I do prefer having no Real Life examples on this page, or in fact, almost any other page. The only interesting Real Life ones, in my opinion, are in instances where its a type of Reality Is Unrealistic - that is, you'd think the trope would never actually occur in real life.

edited 2nd Dec '10 4:30:48 PM by MoCellMan

I agree, though I'd like to add that it can also be interesting to see when Real Life examples have inspired or influenced the trope.

But yeah, I don't read trope pages for the real life events.

Gilgameshkun,PM Fast Eddie, and see if he'll rescind the lock.

Thanks for the suggestion. PMed.

edited 3rd Dec '10 3:12:44 AM by Gilgameshkun